Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

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bovlomov
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby bovlomov » 9 Jan 2019, 8:34am

Ben@Forest wrote:It's difficult to know what to think about the 'Soubry event'. It is nasty and not decent behaviour, but when would that particular incident step over the line into being illegal? When does loud shouting and offensive words become become threatening behaviour? If protestors were pulled away and arrested there'd be more response on here suggesting we'd become a police state.

It is a matter of degree. Shouting "Nazi" and "You're a piece of £%!#" is unpleasant but, I think, just about acceptable. Following someone, stopping them from walking along the pavement and repeatedly shouting insults into their face, surely oversteps the mark. If that isn't intimidation and harassment, I don't know what is. I've known people arrested for far less.

And the police have other tools besides arrest. At the very least, an officer could have had a word, telling them to back off.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby merseymouth » 9 Jan 2019, 8:35am

Dear all, We regularly see loutish behaviour in the HoC, not in "The Other Place", but that is for Mr Speaker to sort out! I don't hold my breath waiting for him to get a grip on it.
But when it comes to the same sort of behaviour in a public place then it is a very different matter indeed!
A breach has occurred of "The Queen's Peace", contrary to the Public Order Act Section 5, the police should have taken an active involvement in the affair. Harassment, Distress and Alarm has occurred, that the officer in clear shot did nothing is awful. We don't always get the police we deserve.
With regards to Ms Soubry's cycling credentials? All I can say for sure is that she is not a member of the Tricycling Association! TTFN MM

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 9 Jan 2019, 8:36am

There is a long history, almost a tradition, of people abusing politicians. At its most harmless it can amount to heckling and humorous banter. The question is, where do we draw the line between the acceptable and the unacceptable.

JRM had protesters turn up on the doorstep of his home and tell one of his small children that some people don't like his daddy. That crossed two lines, I think. Firstly, protesting at someone's home is not acceptable to me. It is intimidating and invasive. Worse still is involving someone's child.

With Anna Soubry the Nazi chant, while unjustified, daft and rude, was not a particular worry for me. It wasn't good and I oppose it, but it was just offensive heckling. It made the protesters look bad. But the shouting at her as she returned to Parliament brought the protesters oppressively close. When someone shouts at you close up it is intimidation. That crossed a line for me. It was threatening.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Jan 2019, 9:02am

JimL wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
JimL wrote:The strong implication is she doesn't cycle on the roads and she explicitly states her children are not allowed on the roads , far too dangerous. Whether she ever used the mountain bike we don't know and what child didn't go through a cycling phase but most don't class themselve as cyclists in adulthood.

She's not a true cyclist. She just cycles.


To continue a pointless debate. We don't know if she is a cyclist or indeed she just cycles. We know her husband gave he a mountain bike some time back.



That was never the point or question.....

The question referred to A cyclist..... a random, anonymous, ordinary nameless and every day cyclist

There are hate groups who harangue cyclists. What if they now started face to face confrontations, blocking the way and screaming insults in their face?

Would that be acceptable?

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Jan 2019, 9:17am

pwa wrote:There is a long history, almost a tradition, of people abusing politicians. At its most harmless it can amount to heckling and humorous banter. The question is, where do we draw the line between the acceptable and the unacceptable.

JRM had protesters turn up on the doorstep of his home and tell one of his small children that some people don't like his daddy. That crossed two lines, I think. Firstly, protesting at someone's home is not acceptable to me. It is intimidating and invasive. Worse still is involving someone's child.

With Anna Soubry the Nazi chant, while unjustified, daft and rude, was not a particular worry for me. It wasn't good and I oppose it, but it was just offensive heckling. It made the protesters look bad. But the shouting at her as she returned to Parliament brought the protesters oppressively close. When someone shouts at you close up it is intimidation. That crossed a line for me. It was threatening.


You are right, but what is worrying is the way they choose their targets, they are all women or ethnic minorities..... This is associated with one MP because it was such a public display of aggression, misogyny, that it worked for the media. There are multiple others that have not been recorded in the same way and these are also coming to light.

They have broken in to radio stations, blocked roads, broken in to the Labour Party, again using intimidation racist and sexist threats.

We could also look at the links of this group with "Liberty defenders" an ultra right wing group with anti-Islamic policies, also associated with Nick Griffin Members of this group are also active on anti-Muslim far right websites.

What needs to be bone in mind is whether this is actually about Brexit at all, or whether it is about the nastier racist element amongst the supporters of brexit using this to forward their xenophobic hatred........ Ironically one of the key policies of Nazism

It is noted that others are taking steps. The "Leader" has now had his Facebook rantings closed down and PayPal has frozen he's donation account

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 9 Jan 2019, 9:36am

It is indeed ironic that those shouting "Nazi" are closer to being Nazi than 99% of the UK population. Idiots.

The Monmouthshire MP David Davies (the other one) is a Eurosceptic MP who has had threatening / abusive correspondence and confrontations in the street, some attacking him for being gay. So this is wider than just a Brexit related thing.

Over the last couple of decades there has been a pushing at the limits of what is felt to be acceptable behaviour when dealing with other people. Some of it may be to do with Big Brother and other "reality" TV, where the public are almost invited to intrude into people's personal space, and make personal comment. And Facebook / Twitter, etc have made people feel free to say things they didn't used to feel free to say. There are probably good sides to that, but some people have lost a lot of restraint and now feel free to abuse anyone at any time, online or to their face. Brexit is the hot topic of the day and has whipped up the flames of hostility, but the flames were already there.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Jan 2019, 9:56am

... As someone noted above the police were in attendance and had no problem. ...

Perhaps more accurate to say that they took no obvious action.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 10:01am

pwa wrote:There is a long history, almost a tradition, of people abusing politicians. At its most harmless it can amount to heckling and humorous banter. The question is, where do we draw the line between the acceptable and the unacceptable.

JRM had protesters turn up on the doorstep of his home and tell one of his small children that some people don't like his daddy. That crossed two lines, I think. Firstly, protesting at someone's home is not acceptable to me. It is intimidating and invasive. Worse still is involving someone's child.

With Anna Soubry the Nazi chant, while unjustified, daft and rude, was not a particular worry for me. It wasn't good and I oppose it, but it was just offensive heckling. It made the protesters look bad. But the shouting at her as she returned to Parliament brought the protesters oppressively close. When someone shouts at you close up it is intimidation. That crossed a line for me. It was threatening.

Yep, agree in all respects.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 11:23am

merseymouth wrote:It is also out of order to tar all those who voted leave as being unworthy of common decency, especially saying one M.P. had already been killed by a "Leave Supporter"! Such people who carry out unreasonable act only go to show the failure of "Care in the Community".

This has nothing to do with Care in the Community and to say that it does unnecessarily stigmatises those who suffer from mental illness.

It is all out of order to tar those with mental illness as being likely to perform such a despicable act.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jan 2019, 11:33am

Bonefishblues wrote:
pwa wrote:There is a long history, almost a tradition, of people abusing politicians. At its most harmless it can amount to heckling and humorous banter. The question is, where do we draw the line between the acceptable and the unacceptable.

JRM had protesters turn up on the doorstep of his home and tell one of his small children that some people don't like his daddy. That crossed two lines, I think. Firstly, protesting at someone's home is not acceptable to me. It is intimidating and invasive. Worse still is involving someone's child.

With Anna Soubry the Nazi chant, while unjustified, daft and rude, was not a particular worry for me. It wasn't good and I oppose it, but it was just offensive heckling. It made the protesters look bad. But the shouting at her as she returned to Parliament brought the protesters oppressively close. When someone shouts at you close up it is intimidation. That crossed a line for me. It was threatening.

Yep, agree in all respects.

Me too.
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jan 2019, 11:35am

merseymouth wrote:It is also out of order to tar all those who voted leave as being unworthy of common decency, especially saying one M.P. had already been killed by a "Leave Supporter"! Such people who carry out unreasonable act only go to show the failure of "Care in the Community".


Oh dear,hear we go again :?
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Jan 2019, 11:47am

Vorpal wrote:
merseymouth wrote:It is also out of order to tar all those who voted leave as being unworthy of common decency, especially saying one M.P. had already been killed by a "Leave Supporter"! Such people who carry out unreasonable act only go to show the failure of "Care in the Community".

This has nothing to do with Care in the Community and to say that it does unnecessarily stigmatises those who suffer from mental illness.

It is all out of order to tar those with mental illness as being likely to perform such a despicable act.


I will be very careful to make this clear..
1. I am not saying that people with Mental Health issues or Learning Difficulties are terrorists or prone to becoming terrorists
2. I am not saying that as a group they feature more highly in terrorist incidents than other groups
3. The ""PREVENT" campaign to identify vulnerable individuals does seek to address these individuals, but not as an exclusive group

However radicalisation does occur and in these cases they may also be victims, just as much as the people they kill or maim

Unfortunately many people with learning difficulties or mental health issues also have a need for a place in society, friends, and someone to support them


All too often this is abused by extremist groups who nurture them, suggest and reinforce their extremism and in doing so convince the vulnerable that this is the "right way", and it becomes attractive and compelling

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 11:49am

Cunobelin wrote:Unfortunately many people with learning difficulties or mental health issues also have a need for a place in society, friends, and someone to support them

All too often this is abused by extremist groups who nurture them, suggest and reinforce their extremism and in doing so convince the vulnerable that this is the "right way", and it becomes attractive and compelling

Is there evidence of this?

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 11:56am

Cunobelin wrote:I will be very careful to make this clear..
All too often this is abused by extremist groups who nurture them, suggest and reinforce their extremism and in doing so convince the vulnerable that this is the "right way", and it becomes attractive and compelling


Fair enough. I just didn't want mental illness carelessly stigmatised by association with an extremist.

I have noted on this forum in the past that the British (even Western) health system fails those with mental illness. And I agree that inadequate care can make those with issues vulnerable to extremist organisations.

However, someone having been treated earlier in his life for a behavioural disorder does *not* mean the Jo Cox died because of a failure of care in the community, or anything else to do with mental health.

Aditionally, those with mental health issues are more likely to victims and less likely to be violent than the general population.

https://www.time-to-change.org.uk/media ... h-problems
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 12:10pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Unfortunately many people with learning difficulties or mental health issues also have a need for a place in society, friends, and someone to support them

All too often this is abused by extremist groups who nurture them, suggest and reinforce their extremism and in doing so convince the vulnerable that this is the "right way", and it becomes attractive and compelling

Is there evidence of this?

Sort of.

https://ctc.usma.edu/is-there-a-nexus-b ... mic-state/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... h-problems
https://start.umd.edu/news/mental-illness-and-terrorism
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nikitamali ... d515226dc7

It is also possible that extremism causes mental health issues.

There is a cultural difference in perception and media portrayal about mental health and vulnerability when the perpetrator of violence is a white British person rather than Muslim and/or an ethnic minority.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom