Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Bonefishblues
Posts: 5549
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 12:14pm

Or indeed a white Norwegian, in sad recent memory?

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8870
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Jan 2019, 12:28pm

Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Unfortunately many people with learning difficulties or mental health issues also have a need for a place in society, friends, and someone to support them

All too often this is abused by extremist groups who nurture them, suggest and reinforce their extremism and in doing so convince the vulnerable that this is the "right way", and it becomes attractive and compelling

Is there evidence of this?

Sort of.

https://ctc.usma.edu/is-there-a-nexus-b ... mic-state/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... h-problems
https://start.umd.edu/news/mental-illness-and-terrorism
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nikitamali ... d515226dc7

It is also possible that extremism causes mental health issues.

There is a culural difference in perception and media portrayal about mental health and vulnerability when the perpetrator of violence is a white British person rather than Muslim and/or an ethnic minority.




Thank you


It is still little controversial as to how important this is, which is why I was careful to be generic. I have completed Prevent training, which is where as an HCP we are expected to be aware

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5549
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 12:43pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Is there evidence of this?

Sort of.

https://ctc.usma.edu/is-there-a-nexus-b ... mic-state/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... h-problems
https://start.umd.edu/news/mental-illness-and-terrorism
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nikitamali ... d515226dc7

It is also possible that extremism causes mental health issues.

There is a culural difference in perception and media portrayal about mental health and vulnerability when the perpetrator of violence is a white British person rather than Muslim and/or an ethnic minority.




Thank you


It is still little controversial as to how important this is, which is why I was careful to be generic. I have completed Prevent training, which is where as an HCP we are expected to be aware

I think what prompted the query was the use of "all too often" - is that particular turn of phrase something that you'd use again?

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16305
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 12:55pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Or indeed a white Norwegian, in sad recent memory?

I don't think that many people have portrayed him as vulnerable or suffering form mental health issues, and I think that the authorities in Norway have done a pretty good job of releasing relevant information without feeding speculation.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5549
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 1:08pm

Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Or indeed a white Norwegian, in sad recent memory?

I don't think that many people have portrayed him as vulnerable or suffering form mental health issues, and I think that the authorities in Norway have done a pretty good job of releasing relevant information without feeding speculation.

I'm not sure I understood the point you made previous to my posting the above then Vorpal - how would you contrast the two?

merseymouth
Posts: 587
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby merseymouth » 9 Jan 2019, 1:12pm

Hello again, My point about a "Failure of care in the community" was not mean as a cheap shot.
My direct experience of the failure of the Iron Lady's policy lets me know that care was the last thing she wanted. Some people were in different medical units, for different reasons, sometimes for their safety, others for the safety of society. Remember that Ian Brady never went to prison.
But the fact that we see too many cases of "I heard voices telling me to do it", whatever it was.
It's not a lack of consideration that has me raising such issues, but a feeling that society is too often failed by politicians, but that gives no one the right to go feral!
My years of visiting a number of such hospitals over the years, including the "Brady Rest Home", makes me very aware that failure is an inadequate word for the outcome of Thatcher's meddling.
I live next door to one of the much reduced number of safe houses for those with such issues, witnessing how local pond-life abuses those who can't defend themselves.
the government sold off the Rainhill Hospital site, the got about £3 million for it. But then they had to open up a mothballed former geriatric unit, immediate cost £4 million. Then they had to spend a further £8 million to provide minimum standard facilities! Fiscal stupidity.
So please don't read between the lines, I know more than most folk about such stuff.
But the incidence of mental health issues would appear to be beyond a reasonable level, which even prisons are having to cope with, and yes I have a working knowledge of prison issues as well, mainly Walton & Strangeways, visiting not resident.
So maybe it would do James Goddard a bit of good to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act for his unreasonable behaviour?
MM

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16305
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jan 2019, 1:16pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Or indeed a white Norwegian, in sad recent memory?

I don't think that many people have portrayed him as vulnerable or suffering form mental health issues, and I think that the authorities in Norway have done a pretty good job of releasing relevant information without feeding speculation.

I'm not sure I understood the point you made previous to my posting the above then Vorpal - how would you contrast the two?

Sorry, part of my earlier point was that white people who commit violence are often treated in the media differently from Muslims or ethnic minorities. White perpetrators are protrayed as loners, misguided, or even vulnerable. A key aspect of this is combing through their history for any hint of mental or emotional disorders.

I'm not aware that that sort of information about Brevik was released to the media.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pete75
Posts: 10673
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pete75 » 9 Jan 2019, 1:19pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:What I find ironic is that you are stating that people are entitled to have their opinion heard while supporting Right Wing Extremists trying to stop exactly that!

That is almost funny if it was not so tragic


The whole issue seems to be around abuse in politics and greater society but it occurs even on this thread talking about it - looking at the 'anchor' comment above.

It's difficult to know what to think about the 'Soubry event'. It is nasty and not decent behaviour, but when would that particular incident step over the line into being illegal? When does loud shouting and offensive words become become threatening behaviour? If protestors were pulled away and arrested there'd be more response on here suggesting we'd become a police state.

I don't think this behaviour is new - when working miners went though picket lines in the 84/85 strike I'm sure the abuse and intimidation was just as bad. And in the 1830s the Duke of Wellington (then a politician) had iron shutters fitted to his house after mobs had shattered his windows on several occasions. I think the mob will always be with us.


There is an offence of threatening or abusive words or behaviour. The words directed at her were certainly abusive. My anchor remark was merely fair comment.... :wink:

Lots of pickets were arrested and/or beaten up during the pit strike.

In the 1830's most people couldn't vote. Wellington's house was attacked because of his opposition to parliamentary reform which would have enabled a few more people to vote but by no means a majority of them. It would also have got rid of pocket boroughs where the selection and election of an MP was controlled by a wealthy landowner - there were about 370 of these in the country. A "mob" was the only way in which those without a vote could influence the government.
Last edited by pete75 on 9 Jan 2019, 1:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5549
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 1:26pm

Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I don't think that many people have portrayed him as vulnerable or suffering form mental health issues, and I think that the authorities in Norway have done a pretty good job of releasing relevant information without feeding speculation.

I'm not sure I understood the point you made previous to my posting the above then Vorpal - how would you contrast the two?

Sorry, part of my earlier point was that white people who commit violence are often treated in the media differently from Muslims or ethnic minorities. White perpetrators are protrayed as loners, misguided, or even vulnerable. A key aspect of this is combing through their history for any hint of mental or emotional disorders.

I'm not aware that that sort of information about Brevik was released to the media.

Understood, thanks.

pete75
Posts: 10673
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pete75 » 9 Jan 2019, 1:29pm

Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I don't think that many people have portrayed him as vulnerable or suffering form mental health issues, and I think that the authorities in Norway have done a pretty good job of releasing relevant information without feeding speculation.

I'm not sure I understood the point you made previous to my posting the above then Vorpal - how would you contrast the two?

Sorry, part of my earlier point was that white people who commit violence are often treated in the media differently from Muslims or ethnic minorities. White perpetrators are protrayed as loners, misguided, or even vulnerable. A key aspect of this is combing through their history for any hint of mental or emotional disorders.

I'm not aware that that sort of information about Brevik was released to the media.


Quite. After relatively few incidents the Muslim community is tarred with terrorism. During my lifetime most of the terrorist attacks in the country were carried out white, Roman Catholic terrorists. The Catholic community was treated very differently to how Muslims have been treated by the media.

pwa
Posts: 9020
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 9 Jan 2019, 1:44pm

pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I'm not sure I understood the point you made previous to my posting the above then Vorpal - how would you contrast the two?

Sorry, part of my earlier point was that white people who commit violence are often treated in the media differently from Muslims or ethnic minorities. White perpetrators are protrayed as loners, misguided, or even vulnerable. A key aspect of this is combing through their history for any hint of mental or emotional disorders.

I'm not aware that that sort of information about Brevik was released to the media.


Quite. After relatively few incidents the Muslim community is tarred with terrorism. During my lifetime most of the terrorist attacks in the country were carried out white, Roman Catholic terrorists. The Catholic community was treated very differently to how Muslims have been treated by the media.

Only because they stand out. My Dad was temporarily taken into custody after an IRA bombing because he was an Irish Catholic and therefore suspicious. He thought that was natural and didn't resent it too much.

pete75
Posts: 10673
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pete75 » 9 Jan 2019, 2:07pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Sorry, part of my earlier point was that white people who commit violence are often treated in the media differently from Muslims or ethnic minorities. White perpetrators are protrayed as loners, misguided, or even vulnerable. A key aspect of this is combing through their history for any hint of mental or emotional disorders.

I'm not aware that that sort of information about Brevik was released to the media.


Quite. After relatively few incidents the Muslim community is tarred with terrorism. During my lifetime most of the terrorist attacks in the country were carried out white, Roman Catholic terrorists. The Catholic community was treated very differently to how Muslims have been treated by the media.

Only because they stand out. My Dad was temporarily taken into custody after an IRA bombing because he was an Irish Catholic and therefore suspicious. He thought that was natural and didn't resent it too much.


If that was all they had to go on then he shouldn't have been.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5549
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Jan 2019, 2:13pm

From watching various programmes on the most obvious miscarriages of justice during that period, I don't think that was much considered.

drossall
Posts: 4364
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby drossall » 9 Jan 2019, 2:27pm

Free speech is a right. Mentioning rights without, in the same breath, mentioning responsibilities (the two used to be inseparable in my understanding) leads to competition between rights. My right to say what I like conflicts with your right to feel safe walking down the street, that kind of thing.

To keep my freedom of speech, I need to be able to constrain what I actually say. If I don't, someone else will do that for me, in the interests of protecting whomever I am speaking about.

I don't see any other option - it's rights and responsibilities, or it's clash of rights.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 693
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Oldjohnw » 9 Jan 2019, 3:14pm

Freedom of speech is a right: it is universal but it is not absolute. Which us why we have some limited laws curtailing excesses or where there are perceived threats.
John

Cycling and recycling