Wood Burners

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pete75
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2019, 9:55pm

Mark R wrote:
They'll probably try and ban bonfires too. There's certain types of people around who seem very keen on banning things and dorky little Gove seems just that type of person.


You think banning garden bonfires would be a bad thing??

I'd like to hear the rationale behind that one!

Maybe you live somewhere very isolated, otherwise how can you possibly justify forcing others to breathe your smoke?

Could the practice of lighting garden bonfires be the ultimate, quintessential example of forcing the external costs of one's behaviour onto others?

The ultimate example of that toxic 'I'll do as I please, **** everybody else' attitude that is so toxic and pernicious??

I can't think of a better example: One householder enjoys the convenience of being able to dispose of all their garden waste at zero cost to themselves; everyone downwind gets to breathe the stinking, carcinogenic, asthma inducing smoke......

BTW, Gove is not proposing to ban bonfires, no sir, not even in smoke controlled areas! Did anyone actually believe the propaganda that the Tories are about to 'get tough on air pollution'?


If someone wants to ban something they need to justify it. Bonfires not uncommon in our village to burn garden waste. Doesn't seem to cause any problems. Using a woodburner uses up wood which would otherwise go to waste. There are about 30 trees in our garden over 30 feet high. Some are ash near the end of their life. I have to take them down once they start dropping branches. WHat would you have me do with the wood? Took a 60 footer down last year - it will provide fuel for two or more winters.
Last edited by pete75 on 14 Jan 2019, 10:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 10:00pm

pwa wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:On the drive home tonight radio 4 had an interview with a boffin who studies air pollution matters. Very interesting. The points I noted is below!:
    38% of all uk particulate pollution is from woodburners
    The difference between an efficient burner and inefficient burner is that the efficient burner releases a fifth of the particulates of an inefficient one.
    In trials around the world where all stood burners / fires were changed to only efficient ones it has been shown that the particulates from woodburners halves after the change.
    The particulates released does spread into the atmosphere but it mostly affects the immediate neighbours where it actually gets into houses. Basically the comments this academic gets when discussing this is to describe it as like passive smoking. He was laughing when the interviewer said that too because he hears that a lot when he's told people about the problem. I mean you'd complain if your neighbour popped round and started to smoke in your house. That's kind of what is happening with woodburners. That was what the academic was expressing better than me.

So as efficient as you can make it I ask you whether it's right that your neighbours should get your pollution off it's not needed for heat if you can get mains gas heating installed. Indeed if it already have an efficient central heating and using it because it looks and feels nice to have a real fire in your living room, is that acceptable?


All I can say is my wood burner is active, my wife and I have just been for a twenty minute stroll around the village, and we did not smell smoke from our wood burner when we were walking away from the house or returning to it. Just as normal. There are others in the village who burn wood and I did not smell any smoke as we walked round. I know the smell itself is not the main issue, but if there is no smell it is very unlikely there is a problem with particulates. Dry wood, efficient burner and good technique mean minimal smoke. You need all three to be consistently clean burning.

Really? What smell does microfine particulates smell like then? Sorry if this is offensive but that has to be a ridiculous argument. The science is published, experts agree. It's measurable. But you can't smell it so they're wrong. I guess your nose knows more about it.

You know what, I have no sense of smell (well it's not very good) . So that means if I can't detect car pollution (which most of the time I can't) then there's no problem there neither. Let's get rid of LEZ / ULEZs.

I can't see particulates from wood burners and rarely from cars these days so no issue too. That's a second measurement device that supports pollution denial. I don't believe climate change exists. Climate denial / pollution denial. Is there a similarity there?

Mark R
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Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mark R » 14 Jan 2019, 10:10pm

Promoting diesel for carbon emission reasons when it was known diesel is worse than petrol for the other pollutants


Gary Fuller (Kings College) was being interviewed on radio 4 about his book "Air Pollution the Hidden Killer"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001hj7
(34 minutes in)

According to him the real reason for the promotion of diesel cars was the move away from oil to Natural Gas for boiler fuel and for heating. The oil companies needed a new market for their heavy oil so lobbied governments for policies that would suit them.

The CO2 thing was just a convenient bit of greenwash.

I haven't fact checked it but its an interesting theory.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2019, 10:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
pwa wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:On the drive home tonight radio 4 had an interview with a boffin who studies air pollution matters. Very interesting. The points I noted is below!:
    38% of all uk particulate pollution is from woodburners
    The difference between an efficient burner and inefficient burner is that the efficient burner releases a fifth of the particulates of an inefficient one.
    In trials around the world where all stood burners / fires were changed to only efficient ones it has been shown that the particulates from woodburners halves after the change.
    The particulates released does spread into the atmosphere but it mostly affects the immediate neighbours where it actually gets into houses. Basically the comments this academic gets when discussing this is to describe it as like passive smoking. He was laughing when the interviewer said that too because he hears that a lot when he's told people about the problem. I mean you'd complain if your neighbour popped round and started to smoke in your house. That's kind of what is happening with woodburners. That was what the academic was expressing better than me.

So as efficient as you can make it I ask you whether it's right that your neighbours should get your pollution off it's not needed for heat if you can get mains gas heating installed. Indeed if it already have an efficient central heating and using it because it looks and feels nice to have a real fire in your living room, is that acceptable?


All I can say is my wood burner is active, my wife and I have just been for a twenty minute stroll around the village, and we did not smell smoke from our wood burner when we were walking away from the house or returning to it. Just as normal. There are others in the village who burn wood and I did not smell any smoke as we walked round. I know the smell itself is not the main issue, but if there is no smell it is very unlikely there is a problem with particulates. Dry wood, efficient burner and good technique mean minimal smoke. You need all three to be consistently clean burning.

Really? What smell does microfine particulates smell like then? Sorry if this is offensive but that has to be a ridiculous argument. The science is published, experts agree. It's measurable. But you can't smell it so they're wrong. I guess your nose knows more about it.

You know what, I have no sense of smell (well it's not very good) . So that means if I can't detect car pollution (which most of the time I can't) then there's no problem there neither. Let's get rid of LEZ / ULEZs.

I can't see particulates from wood burners and rarely from cars these days so no issue too. That's a second measurement device that supports pollution denial. I don't believe climate change exists. Climate denial / pollution denial. Is there a similarity there?


Maybe I didn't word it clear enough. Smell is an indicator of incomplete combustion. Incomplete combustion gives rise to particulates. So while the smell itself is not the main problem it probably does tell you that there are likely to be particulates about. It is an indicator.

Mark R
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mark R » 14 Jan 2019, 10:29pm

If someone wants to ban something they need to justify it. Bonfires not uncommon in our village to burn garden waste. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.


Well that's not difficult!

We are talking about burning large amounts of organic matter in a manner which is completely uncontrolled. The smoke has the potential to cover a large area, affecting large numbers of innocents.

Low temperature combustion of organic matter creates highly toxic dioxin compounds. Apart from this bonfire smoke is a toxic mixture of many carcinogenic and irritant substances.

If we accept that tobacco smoke is carcinogenic and harmful when breathed passively what do we think about huge piles of random organic matter being burned at low temperatures???

Let me put it another way.....If there are still question marks over the emissions from the latest woodburners (and there are..) why the ****** is government prepared to turn a blind eye to huge piles of random organic waste smouldering away in urban gardens?

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2019, 10:37pm

Mark R wrote:
If someone wants to ban something they need to justify it. Bonfires not uncommon in our village to burn garden waste. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.


Well that's not difficult!

We are talking about burning large amounts of organic matter in a manner which is completely uncontrolled. The smoke has the potential to cover a large area, affecting large numbers of innocents.

Low temperature combustion of organic matter creates highly toxic dioxin compounds. Apart from this bonfire smoke is a toxic mixture of many carcinogenic and irritant substances.

If we accept that tobacco smoke is carcinogenic and harmful when breathed passively what do we think about huge piles of random organic matter being burned at low temperatures???

Let me put it another way.....If there are still question marks over the emissions from the latest woodburners (and there are..) why the ****** is government prepared to turn a blind eye to huge piles of random organic waste smouldering away in urban gardens?


I'm not really concerned about what happens in urban gardens. The government will turn a blind eye because of the all the flack they'd get from the Mail, the Express and the Murdoch press.

Mark R
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mark R » 14 Jan 2019, 10:46pm

Exactly. They can't be seen as the one restricting personal freedoms - such as the freedom to smoke out your neighbours - its only the EU which does such things right?

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 10:56pm

Mark R wrote:
Promoting diesel for carbon emission reasons when it was known diesel is worse than petrol for the other pollutants


Gary Fuller (Kings College) was being interviewed on radio 4 about his book "Air Pollution the Hidden Killer"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001hj7
(34 minutes in)

According to him the real reason for the promotion of diesel cars was the move away from oil to Natural Gas for boiler fuel and for heating. The oil companies needed a new market for their heavy oil so lobbied governments for policies that would suit them.

The CO2 thing was just a convenient bit of greenwash.

I haven't fact checked it but its an interesting theory.

Interview with a senior automotive industry expert / executive (turned the radio on to it so didn't quite catch who exactly he was other than a industry insider) on radio 4. Interview was regarding the JLR job losses and the causes. He also mentioned that Ford may be following GM and withdrawing from an active European manufacturing. It started on the job losses bit eventually moved on to discussions related to dieselgate.

The expert said diesel promotion over petrol was due to lobbying from European manufacturers who were concerned about Japanese car manufacturers gaining market share in Europe. Basically it was using climate change and carbon emissions to make the Japanese manufacturers less competitive since they favoured petrol and were some way behind European manufacturers with regard to diesel engines.

Who knows which version is right? I certainly don't. Perhaps there was a two pronged attack on this matter. AIUI diesel was a byproduct of production of other fractions so the oil is processed to petrol and other fuels and other uses leaving the fraction which diesel comes from. Without diesel the whole thing has leftovers.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby [XAP]Bob » 15 Jan 2019, 6:11am

Petrol was a leftover once...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2019, 9:18am

Mark R wrote:Exactly. They can't be seen as the one restricting personal freedoms - such as the freedom to smoke out your neighbours - its only the EU which does such things right?


Oh yeah - I can really see French farmers complying with a ban on bonfires. Then there's the Latvians whose Jani night celebrations involve bonfires - won't be easy to stop. November the 5th here too. Good luck with trying to get those longstanding traditions stopped and you'll need it when you try and stop the so called eleventh night bonfires in Ulster.
A few years ago we had the world's biggest bonfire a few miles up the road .. http://www.colinfurze.com/biggest-fire.html. Didn't cause much bother.

francovendee
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby francovendee » 15 Jan 2019, 9:48am

pete75 wrote:
Mark R wrote:Exactly. They can't be seen as the one restricting personal freedoms - such as the freedom to smoke out your neighbours - its only the EU which does such things right?


Oh yeah - I can really see French farmers complying with a ban on bonfires. Then there's the Latvians whose Jani night celebrations involve bonfires - won't be easy to stop. November the 5th here too. Good luck with trying to get those longstanding traditions stopped and you'll need it when you try and stop the so called eleventh night bonfires in Ulster.
A few years ago we had the world's biggest bonfire a few miles up the road .. http://www.colinfurze.com/biggest-fire.html. Didn't cause much bother.


You're right about the farmers here. We can no longer burn rubbish in the garden but many of the local farms still burn their rubbish, not just leaves and such but plastic sheets and containers!
Wood burning is the most common form of heating around here but we are living in a rural area. In our nearest big city then wood isn't used so much.
I do think there should be a total ban on new installations in cities. It's a fad and there other cleaner ways to heat the home. We don't have town gas so our choice comes down to electricity or oil, if it's not wood. We use electricity (storage heaters) and wood. We've been very glad of having the woodburner when we had a 2 day power cut a few years back.

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Mick F
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mick F » 15 Jan 2019, 10:35am

So .................. if we can't burn wood or burn coal, what is the GREENEST heating for the home, and is it possible for the majority of homes?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Wood Burners

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Jan 2019, 10:56am

francovendee wrote:You're right about the farmers here. We can no longer burn rubbish in the garden but many of the local farms still burn their rubbish, not just leaves and such but plastic sheets and containers!


Indeed and not just over there with you.
A nieghbour with a wood burner is positively benign in comparison.
A filthy disgusting lazy man's way.
Dangerous chemicals and a smell from hell.
Environmental health (and Gove!) should take and interest in that!!

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2019, 11:00am

francovendee wrote:
You're right about the farmers here. We can no longer burn rubbish in the garden but many of the local farms still burn their rubbish, not just leaves and such but plastic sheets and containers!
Wood burning is the most common form of heating around here but we are living in a rural area. In our nearest big city then wood isn't used so much.
I do think there should be a total ban on new installations in cities. It's a fad and there other cleaner ways to heat the home. We don't have town gas so our choice comes down to electricity or oil, if it's not wood. We use electricity (storage heaters) and wood. We've been very glad of having the woodburner when we had a 2 day power cut a few years back.


Wood burners are not a fad and have been in use for many, many years.

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al_yrpal
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Location: South Potholeshire also known as the Chilterns

Re: Wood Burners

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Jan 2019, 11:03am

The GREENEST... For most of us gas, possibly for you Calor Gas delivered to a big tank at the foot of your drive. Our stove, pictured above gives out about 4kw. When our boiler packed up it heated the whole house with the doors left open, but the bottles of propane it runs on are expensive. A Calor gas tank and a gas boiler would cost a lot though.

I cannot imagine that a wood burning stove in an isolated house like yours burning your own wood is environmentally unfriendly though.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!