Your vote on Mrs May's Deal ( just for today)

[mr bajokoses]

The problem is entirely our intransigence. I can't see what the EU could possibly have done differently without jeopardising their border, since if they agree to our untried and untested deal and it doesn't work then they're stuffed.
In that regard that was the right choice by them and gave us the ability to try and get it working first, demonstrating it would work would have satisfied the backstop conditions and all would have been well.
Trouble is the brexitears were all over it and the result of their panic is that brexit now stands a fair to middling chance of not happening at all...

It highlights yet another irony of the brexiter position. They either have a technological solution for the Irish border, or they don't. Judging by the panic about the backstop, they don't.

[thirdcrank]

A lot of the focus on Northern Ireland has been caused by TM's desperate need to keep the DUP onboard. OTOH, it's hard to imagine the DUP doing anything to trigger a general election with JC leading the Labour Party.

[Canuk]

A lot of the focus on Northern Ireland has been caused by TM's desperate need to keep the DUP onboard. OTOH, it's hard to imagine the DUP doing anything to trigger a general election with JC leading the Labour Party.

Otoh if the Tories won a GE, by a sizable majority they could ditch the DUP, sideline the ridiculous ERG and renegotiate the back stop. They could also get rid of May in one fell swoop. I can see how a GE might be very attractive option to the Tory party right now.

[mercalia]

ah you must love the Eu with its "honesty". Well what do you make of them with their comforting words about the backstop just being a temporary matter when they really think there is no way out of it viz they reject as unworkable any hi-tech soln ( which seems the only way that dont need a customs union) Thats a grossest form of dishonesty like saying oh you can leave the backstop when hell freezes over What you say may be true of the UK but the EU are no better. Unfortunately Mrs May fell for it hook line and sinker. Mrs may should never have wasted the last 2 years with furthter negotiations until the backstop was sorted on terms aceptable to the UK ( we have heard of some in debate last night eg time limits/unilateral exit ) or the intransigence of the EU shown for what it was, a meddling in UK -Eire affairs

Mrs May fell for nothing.
It's obvious to all but the most ignorant that a customs border was necessary. They simply insisted we have one or join the customs union, May drew her red line and kept insisting we don't.
In the end I reckon they agreed to the backstop simply to shut her up. The backstop is nothing more than saying "fine, if you can figure out a way to make it work that's acceptable then we'll go with it".

Whether they think it can be done or not doesn't really come into it. What May did was waste two years trying to get an impossible deal and without joining the customs union that was it.
So nothing dishonest about it, simply accepting that with the proviso we figure out how to make it work then we can remove ourselves from the customs union and if we can't then we're stuck until we do.

The stupid thing is we can't join the WTO without a border either.

The problem is entirely our intransigence. I can't see what the EU could possibly have done differently without jeopardising their border, since if they agree to our untried and untested deal and it doesn't work then they're stuffed.
In that regard that was the right choice by them and gave us the ability to try and get it working first, demonstrating it would work would have satisfied the backstop conditions and all would have been well.
Trouble is the brexitears were all over it and the result of their panic is that brexit now stands a fair to middling chance of not happening at all...

maybe but it is in our control a level playing field & the EU will not be able to just sit on its haunches while we struggle to make things work - thats really the point. There is a certain complacency about the EU's position that a WTO choice would not allow ( neither would an no-agreement Brexit, they might have to end up imposing border controls! and be responsible for breaking the GFA! to Eires chagrin)
well it will be interesting to see what finally happens? Brexit with a customs union that gives us no control, having to follow EU rules is hardly a Brexit how ever you look at it? Presumably a customs union wouldnt be an agreement between equals? I just cannot understand Labours position in this respect, how on earth it is a Brexit.

[thirdcrank]

.... I can see how a GE might be very attractive option to the Tory party right now.

I'm not sure whether a comma might go in after Tory party, but either way a few votes the other way in the confidence motion would have given them the opportunity to see, but they seem to have other ideas.

[Canuk]

.... I can see how a GE might be very attractive option to the Tory party right now.

I'm not sure whether a comma might go in after Tory party, but either way a few votes the other way in the confidence motion would have given them the opportunity to see, but they seem to have other ideas.

They seem hell bent on something. What that is, not sure yet. But if they keep on losing big votes in the house then another (and after that probably another) no confidence vote will effectively topple them.

You can't maintain the confidence of the country, never mind the house if you consistently lose votes. We have have May's snap election and wafer thin majority to thank for that.

Its my opinion that with the DUP and the ERG, both crushing the alternatives, no Brexit deal is possible with the current administration. Its an impossible situation.

Something, or someone has to give.

[Tangled Metal]

I read a wto representative said to an Irish newspaper that there is nothing in the rules that would require a hard border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. Just to clarify that I hope.

[mjr]

I read a wto representative said to an Irish newspaper that there is nothing in the rules that would require a hard border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. Just to clarify that I hope.

I've read all kinds of nonsense from desperate people, too. Thank you for clarifying that others are.

[kwackers]

I read a wto representative said to an Irish newspaper that there is nothing in the rules that would require a hard border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. Just to clarify that I hope.

That's only partially true.

In truth the 'non-discrimination' rule would probably apply which would mean borders.

Here's the best description I've seen (in simple terms) : wto borders

I found it interesting that something similar happens with bananas.
Whilst in the Caribbean a lot of the folk I spoke to there where of the opinion that the EU was anti-Caribbean bananas (despite the fact the EU spends hundreds of millions over there helping them to modernise and sell their bananas).
But the actual truth is they trade them under WTO, Americans with their 'southern American' interests in banana growing complained to the WTO using the 'non-discrimination' rule and so the main problem for Caribbean banana growers is actually the WTO and not the EU.
(The other problem is if you go to the supermarket when you look at south American bananas and compare them to Caribbean bananas the south American bananas are twice the size and so folk tend to buy them instead).

[kwackers]

Brexit with a customs union that gives us no control, having to follow EU rules is hardly a Brexit how ever you look at it? Presumably a customs union wouldnt be an agreement between equals? I just cannot understand Labours position in this respect, how on earth it is a Brexit.

It's a brexit because you've left the EU. Might not be your idea of a brexit but if we've learned anything over the last few years it's that unlike remain, brexit has no single definition that anyone can agree on.

The customs union is just a customs union, whether you sign up to it or not is your choice. Signing up has benefits and disadvantages.
Signing up to the WTO has benefits and disadvantages.

Rules and regulations are how the world works, we can't exist in the modern world without kowtowing to one organisation/country or another.
You want a deal? Then you're over a barrel unless you've got something they want. The smaller you are as a trading partner the less you can offer and the more likely it is you'll get stiffed.
Basic economics.

Even if we crash out with no deal, I'll put real money on the fact that sooner or later we'll be signing up to a deal with the EU and their position on what that deal is won't be better than what we currently have.

[Oldjohnw]

There are three trade take-makers in the world: the EU, USA and China. Everyone else has to comply.