Duke In Rollover

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AlaninWales
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby AlaninWales » 24 Jan 2019, 1:11pm

kylecycler wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:More likely no action is the most common outcome with accidents. There's no inclination for the forces of law and order to act on any wrongdoing related to road use. That's the real story and it's running every day through active decisions by those tasked with protecting the population.

Well said, sir. Fact is, though, any other 97-year-old driver who caused a serious - potentially fatal - collision would have their licence suspended.

Would they? Can you evidence that?

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kylecycler
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby kylecycler » 24 Jan 2019, 2:20pm

AlaninWales wrote:
kylecycler wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:More likely no action is the most common outcome with accidents. There's no inclination for the forces of law and order to act on any wrongdoing related to road use. That's the real story and it's running every day through active decisions by those tasked with protecting the population.

Well said, sir. Fact is, though, any other 97-year-old driver who caused a serious - potentially fatal - collision would have their licence suspended.

Would they? Can you evidence that?

No, sorry, I shouldn't have used the word 'fact', but I suspect they would and I believe they should. I'm fairly sure it's what tends to happen - I've heard of several cases where it does, and it still might in this case. It would be interesting to hear from a police traffic officer or anyone else with experience in these matters.

At the very least his driving should be assessed. That's not being ageist - even though no action might be taken against a younger driver, except for causing the collision, age is very possibly a factor here and surely safety shouldn't be compromised. Again, whether they do or not I wouldn't know.

thirdcrank
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Jan 2019, 8:20pm

Prince Philip's crash: Speed camera delay on crash road
The installation of speed cameras on the road where the Duke of Edinburgh was involved in a crash was delayed for months, it has emerged.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-46988143
For anybody unfamiliar with the A 149 I'd say some of the speed limits seem bizarre: although it's a busy A road, it's little more than a rural lane in design standards in places. Also from that link
In the last three years there have been three deaths on the stretch between King's Lynn and Snettisham and and 30 injuries.

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geomannie
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby geomannie » 25 Jan 2019, 8:53am

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mjr
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby mjr » 25 Jan 2019, 10:20am

thirdcrank wrote:Prince Philip's crash: Speed camera delay on crash road
The installation of speed cameras on the road where the Duke of Edinburgh was involved in a crash was delayed for months, it has emerged.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-46988143
For anybody unfamiliar with the A 149 I'd say some of the speed limits seem bizarre: although it's a busy A road, it's little more than a rural lane in design standards in places. Also from that link
In the last three years there have been three deaths on the stretch between King's Lynn and Snettisham and and 30 injuries.

And one of the deaths was off-duty police IIRC, so probably not an inexperienced ignorant driver.

The crash location is almost exactly one of the transitions between the modern (1970ish IIRC) Castle Rising Bypass (the former route is the car-free National Cycle Route 1) and one of the "rural lane" sections through Sandringham and Wolferton parishes with junctions to the villages. Many similar low-spec tree-lined A roads elsewhere in Norfolk are already 50mph but I suspect the perceived impact upon journey times to the coastal resorts has made county councillors hesitate on tackling this section.

Other than extrapolating from the questionable eyewitness reports, there's not much suggestion that anyone was speeding in the Duke's collision, is there? And even if they were, the Duke still should have given way...
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thirdcrank
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Jan 2019, 11:00am

mjr wrote: ... Other than extrapolating from the questionable eyewitness reports, there's not much suggestion that anyone was speeding in the Duke's collision, is there? And even if they were, the Duke still should have given way...


I think I've been consistent in saying that HRH failed to give way. There's been a widespread assumption both on here and more widely that the only thing which has prevented his prosecution is some sort of special treatment and I simply do not believe that to be the case. We've moved from prosecution being almost inevitable after a crash to it being quite unusual. It says something for policing-by-social-media that so many people still believe that a crash = inevitable prosecution. To be fair to the CPS, they look more closely at evidence than was once the case and if the evidence of witnesses is "questionable" they recognise that it reduces the likelihood of conviction.

I believe that the fact of police attending this crash was probably caused by initial reports making it sound more serious than was actually the case. Also, HRH seems to be renowned for eschewing personal security but I presume that Norfolk Constabulary will have contingency plans if he's vulnerable in a public place. I'm pretty confident that if there had been nothing to require a police presence at the time such as a road blockage, then there would have been an assumption that the drivers involved should report the accident within 24 hours at a police station. I'd like to be proved wrong. There's room for discussion over the meaning of "serious injury" in KSI, but I believe it is widely interpreted as a potential fatal ie the SI may become a K.

I linked to the stuff about speed cameras not to imply anything about this crash, just to try to illustrate that equivocation by people such as local councillors over speed restrictions is an issue.

=========================================================================================

PS There's the issue of "speeding" as in "exceeding the speed limit" and inappropriate speed in the circumstances.

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mjr
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby mjr » 25 Jan 2019, 11:21am

thirdcrank wrote:There's room for discussion over the meaning of "serious injury" in KSI, but I believe it is widely interpreted as a potential fatal ie the SI may become a K.

Maybe it is, but that goes directly against both the current official UK definition ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... tement.pdf ) and the recent EU definition as a Maximum Abbreviate Injury Score of 3 or above ( http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-675_en.htm ) which covers a lot more than only life-threatening injuries.

thirdcrank wrote:I linked to the stuff about speed cameras not to imply anything about this crash, just to try to illustrate that equivocation by people such as local councillors over speed restrictions is an issue.

I really cannot understand how you can say the delay in lowering the limit to 50mph "is an issue" in this case without implying anything!
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thirdcrank
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Jan 2019, 2:19pm

Re the definition of injury, IMO it's worthwhile recognising the difference between recording, and investigating with a view to prosecution (or at least being able to say something at an inquest.) I'm also trying to explain what does happen, rather than some analysis of what should happen. Especially from the POV of a vulnerable road user it's the bad driving which should be the issue, not the extent of the injury which can be a matter of luck so that something which would be "damage only" when involving two motor vehicles would kill or maim a cyclist

It's open to anybody to interpret my posts how they like. They do tend to be on the long side because I try to cover all the angles. The question of speed and speed limits in this case was raised above following media comment and the link I posted seemed relevant to that discussion. The definition of "give way" is pretty strict about the emerging driver's responsibilities.

ThePinkOne
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby ThePinkOne » 26 Jan 2019, 12:52pm

On a slight tangent.......

I often wonder if the "national speed limit" is too high on "A-roads" with lots of little junctions along them.

Something I learnt from an older railway colleague is the way oncoming vehicles can "jump out the picture" at you if they are going fast i.e. anything over about 50mph. In the context I learned it, was to do with looking out for approaching trains when working on the railway- the basic rule being "if you can see the train you must wait until it's past as it's basically impossible for the human brain to judge oncoming speed/distance of a fast-moving thing with little of it visible."

When you look out for trains, you initially see the high-intensity headlight then as the yellow front resolves you see that. But as soon as you see the train (headlight), you call the team out, and wait until it's passed. Similarly when using a walking route and crossing multiple lines- if there's one on you wait until its passed even if that means you wait a while.

I've noticed that the prevalance on the road of both DRLs (especially LED ones) and vehicles treating the speed limit as a target (quite possibly using sat-nav as their speedo) so actually doing 60mph where maybe before many vehicles would have actually been doing 45-50mph can make it more difficult to resolve oncoming road vehicles when waiting to pull out of a junction. Modern vehicles roll along at 60mph with little effort and with clever traction control software they hang on in corners faster too- whereas in older cars you felt it when going 60mph and needed to pay more attention as corners often needed slowing down for (and gradients changing down for). Basically, I suspect that the speed on non-trunk A-roads and busy B-roads has gone up in recent years, whilst the level of attention required from the driver to maintain that speed has reduced.

Although in theory the vehicle pulling out gives way, I do wonder if changes to the characteristics of the traffic on the main road have made the task of judging a safe gap to pull out into a much more difficult task and one which is much closer to human brain limitation, because the increased speed of traffic and DRL glare makes it near-impossible for the brain to resolve the speed/time available thing- yet the conditioning from years of having been able to do that (when speeds were lower and the vehicle sans bright white lights offered more to focus on) makes the person pulling out think they can judge it. Mostly they probably get luckly, but sometimes they don't.

Is noticable when travelling along an A-road with lots of little junctions the number of vehicles (especially SUVs) that pull out of side roads with gaps that are too small. Mostly, they get away with it; these days on roads where I travel for work (the stretch of A46 known as Alcester Road is a prime example) if in a car I tend to slow to van speed (50mph) and in the van in any case only can do 50mph and that is with my speedo not sat-nav so is more like 45mph in reality. That drop in speed makes a big difference to being able to take evasive action if someone pulls out unwisely- and I also suspect that my slower big white work van is easier to see/judge speed of than my dark grey car with LED DRLs as (anecdotally) I tend to get fewer people pulling out tight when I'm in the van.

So maybe instead of focusing on the celebrity factor or age factor here, we should be having a conversation about whether the layout of some roads (speed, junction sighting etc) is fit for purpose and whether traffic behaviour and vehicle design is causing wider difficulties.

I suspect that in many cases, a lower speed limit on the main road- with average speed cameras to force compliance- would make things much easier for all- as the human brain has fundamental limitations which I suspect are being (b)reached more regularly these days. Should consider the prevalence of DRLs and especially LED DRLs and headlights as these do seem more difficult to resolve- easier to see but less easy to judge how far away they are or fast they are going. I've noticed of late when driving the van at night on the M-way (plodding along inside lane) that if there is a cluster of vehicles behind in the 2 other lanes, in the mirrors, the speed/distance away of vehicles with LED headlights is much more difficult to judge that those with traditional headlights. I'm also a fan of a mandatory 30mph limit on all small lanes (i.e. any road where there is no central white lane) and 20mph on the ones less than 4.5 metres wide. Oh, and I'd also be requiring better mirrors fitted to big SUVs, I can't believe in those huge ones they can see much with those tiny wing mirrors and tiny rear window- compared or example to big van mirrors- typically large wing mirrors each with an additional blind-spot mirror. (Maybe that's why they close-pass so much?)

Overall- IMO motorised road vehicles need to be designed to take account of needs of other road users that interact with them, and speeds need to drop significantly (and be enforced). Longer term we need a less car-orientated society, but this would help reduce risk in the mean time (and help make cars less popular compared with trains perhaps???!!!).

TPO

brynpoeth
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby brynpoeth » 26 Jan 2019, 5:52pm

Maximum speed limits are generally too high
Keeping comfortably below the maximum is often more trouble than help, motrons are then more likely to overtake, whether my little car or your big van
Best solution as noted elsewhere is to give up driving :?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Jan 2019, 6:12pm

brynpoeth wrote:Keeping comfortably below the maximum is often more trouble than help, motrons are then more likely to overtake, whether my little car or your big van

I don't understand why that would be troubling?

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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby brynpoeth » 26 Jan 2019, 6:25pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Keeping comfortably below the maximum is often more trouble than help, motrons are then more likely to overtake, whether my little car or your big van

I don't understand why that would be troubling?

If the max is 50 kmh and I do 49 they might not overtake, they would need to go far over the maximum to do so :(
But 50 is too fast in town, there are lots of crossings, junctions, I try to avoid braking and keep comfortably below the maximum
If I do 40 the motrons would be more likely to overtake, 55 might be enough, only 10% over the max

Have I explained that right?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Jan 2019, 6:31pm

Why is overtaking an issue for you though, providing it is done with suitable skill and courtesy?

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mjr
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby mjr » 26 Jan 2019, 7:16pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Why is overtaking an issue for you though, providing it is done with suitable skill and courtesy?

I suspect the issue is that it's usually done fecklessly and recklessly.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Duke In Rollover

Postby brynpoeth » 26 Jan 2019, 7:24pm

mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Why is overtaking an issue for you though, providing it is done with suitable skill and courtesy?

I suspect the issue is that it's usually done fecklessly and recklessly.

As described above, the motrons exceed the maximum speed limit to get by, for example when I am doing 1 kmh below the maximum limit they overtake, or undertake :? , they cross unbroken centre lines too etc etc
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