Many years ago l heard a R4 article about travellers in Sweden and the overstifling attitude of Swedish social services had the (unintended) effect of moving them on. The social workers would descend on the encampment to offer advice, enrol kids into the schools, deliver hot breakfasts etc. Which the travellers quickly tired of and moved on - which l can understand, who wants to be treated like a project?
Most of the Roma in Sweden and Norway are descended from Roma who came in the 16th century, when they were kicked out of England.
Are you sure that is accurate? I did Tudor history and never heard this. My wife who didn't, but is a walking Tudor encyclopedia, has not heard it either.
There were a series of Acts which were aimed at placing restrictions on the Roma, but typical for the time, they were patchily enforced if at all, Roma pretty well melded into the large itinerant population. Not only that but Roma has arrived in England because of persecution in other European countries at the time.
Ben@Forest wrote:Are you sure that is accurate? I did Tudor history and never heard this. My wife who didn't, but is a walking Tudor encyclopedia, has not heard it either.
There were a series of Acts which were aimed at placing restrictions on the Roma, but typical for the time, they were patchily enforced if at all, Roma pretty well melded into the large itinerant population. Not only that but Roma has arrived in England because of persecution in other European countries at the time.
Ben@Forest wrote:Are you sure that is accurate? I did Tudor history and never heard this. My wife who didn't, but is a walking Tudor encyclopedia, has not heard it either.
There were a series of Acts which were aimed at placing restrictions on the Roma, but typical for the time, they were patchily enforced if at all, Roma pretty well melded into the large itinerant population. Not only that but Roma has arrived in England because of persecution in other European countries at the time.
I think that says what l was saying. The gypsies/Roma were never completely expelled and expulsion was not exclusively to Scandanavia. It's not very likely that with Roma already in mainland Europe the population in Scandanavia derives solely from the source of expllees from England.
merseymouth wrote:Morning all, If people want an illustration of the "Travellers" behaviour one need only look up the affair at Twaites's Brewery in Blackburn!
Morning all, if people want an illustration of the "Scousers" behaviour one need only look up [insert favourite news item showing Liverpudlians in a particularly bad light here]!
BTW I'm not condoning the Thwaites episode in any way. Neither would I want to tar all Scousers with the same brush as the particularly obnoxious ones that there are & that make the news for that very reason.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
I'm not condoning the Thwaites episode in any way. Neither would I want to tar all Scousers with the same brush as the particularly obnoxiou
I once saw a group of Geordies on a train totally smashed and causing mayhem and offence. Obviously, that's what happens when Geordies are allowed to travel.
I'm not condoning the Thwaites episode in any way. Neither would I want to tar all Scousers with the same brush as the particularly obnoxiou
I once saw a group of Geordies on a train totally smashed and causing mayhem and offence. Obviously, that's what happens when Geordies are allowed to travel.
At this point there is opportunity to send the thread off on two interesting sidetracks:
1) Who can come up with the most outrageous, egregious, unjustified and outright prejudiced vilification of some made-up group or other based on one bad actor they came across out of the million or so in the not-really-a-group. The vilification should include several damning remarks of no evidence or relevance other than acting as a paint brush loaded with blackening fluid. (Example: all people who enjoy The Rolling Stones musak are tone-deaf fools inclined to beat puppies and abuse their grandmas whilst getting fat on MacFud and cheap chocolate from the pound shop).
2) Who can come up with a genuine group (one that self-identifies itself as such) along with multiple instances of their bad behaviour (preferably self-proclaimed by members of the group) with no redeeming features apparent in the group. (Example: Bullingdon Club).
Cugel, doing "social science".
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
I'm not condoning the Thwaites episode in any way. Neither would I want to tar all Scousers with the same brush as the particularly obnoxiou
I once saw a group of Geordies on a train totally smashed and causing mayhem and offence. Obviously, that's what happens when Geordies are allowed to travel.
I yam a Geordie and have been abused in various arcane fashions by other Geordies on several occasions. Does this mean I must myself feel the shame of being a Geordie? Am I condemned to a destiny in which I will smash up some trains whether I want to or not? (I admit to sometimes feeling like that when on a modern train, which itself feels like that Branson abusing me, so why not retaliate).
Wot a paradoxical state you have put me into!
Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Ben@Forest wrote:I think that says what l was saying. The gypsies/Roma were never completely expelled and expulsion was not exclusively to Scandanavia. It's not very likely that with Roma already in mainland Europe the population in Scandanavia derives solely from the source of expllees from England.
I did not say they were completely expelled, nor that the population in Scandinavia was solely derived form those who came from England in the 16th century. I said most. I gather it's about 10,000 people, and there is a smaller population of 2 or 3 other groups. The Roma who are descended form those who came in the 16th century from England, can also be traced through language development, because they speak a somewhat different language to the others.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
I've just been to the barbers, they recounted that recently a group of travellers came in, said to the waiting customers, 'Nobody is going to argue if we go first' - nobody did - and when they sat down started playing with shavers, hairdryers and so on.
The barber who was cutting my hair said he refused to give the bloke sitting in his chair a shave (this is a proper Turkish barbers) because they were so animated, talking and moving, that he couldn't have done it safely. He asked them not to come back, which everyone had agreed was brave in itself.
Of course any group could do this, but you just don't hear that about other groups. I've never heard a similar story from a barber before. And the fact this comes from Turkish men shows that it's not some kind of English prejudice.
Everyone has a few anecdotes to relate. What am I to make of the tale recounted by a roofer who was working on our house? He told us that travellers (he was sure they were responsible) had stolen his van, containing his mobile phone and all his tools. On the off-chance, he tried ringing his number, and someone answered. He pleaded with them to drop his tools but keep the van - to him the tools were of far greater value, and far more irreplaceable, than the vehicle. He got back neither. I could only sympathise.
When I was working, there were several episodes of illegal campers occupying the car parks of adjacent businesses (though they never came into ours). Much inconvenience, several thefts, and a lot of rubbish left behind when they finally did move on.
On the other hand....
What am I to say of the driver, towing a very ornately-decorated, and spotlessly clean, caravan, who once stopped me to ask the way? I suppose he chose me because he thought a cyclist might be more sympathetic. Anyway, he wanted to know where the travellers' camp was. I started to explain where the permanent, legal encampment was, a little to the north of our town (it's gone now). He answered, no, he didn't mean that one, he meant a temporary camp (illegal, though he didn't say that!) which had sprung up to the west of the town. Well, I knew of that one, but it was constantly on the move and I didn't know where it was at that time, so I could only offer some suggestions (was I complicit in a criminal act?) The driver thanked me most politely and drove on. If there's such a thing as a 'civilised' traveller, he was it.
What am I to say of the guy I encountered camped by the roadside, on a quiet country lane near Lewes, for two or three weeks. He had a couple of horses and a traditional Romani 'vardo' - not often seen these days except at the Appleby Fair. He exchanged "good morning" with me as I cycled past. He'd carefully cleared an area of weeds by the roadside, to offer his horses some grazing. Everything was very neat and tidy. Once he'd moved on, there was not a scrap of litter left behind. Another 'civilised' traveller, I reckon.
Just shows - they're all different...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity. Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments... --- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Hi there, Just checked about the Twaites Brewery Blackmail Trial. Two nice Travellers, who for some reason gave addresses in the Aspul area, were convicted of Blackmail. One got 4 years and 3 months in jug, the other got 3 years and 9 months. Two others of the group will be sentenced later? So the tax payer has to foot the bill yet again without a real deterant being set! For myself I would have them remain in jail until they have made financial restitution, with hard labour. Maybe a Victorian Prison Diet as well. Their behaviour was certainly beyond the pail. TTFN MM
Ben@Forest wrote:I've just been to the barbers .........
Sorry, completely off topic.
Last time I had a haircut was 25th June 2015. Utterly and completely bald throughout my whole body since the winter of that year. Absolutely marvellous and I would be distraught if any hair ever grew back again.
661-Pete wrote:There are travellers and there are travellers....
What am I to say of the guy I encountered camped by the roadside, on a quiet country lane near Lewes, for two or three weeks. He had a couple of horses and a traditional Romani 'vardo' - not often seen these days except at the Appleby Fair. He exchanged "good morning" with me as I cycled past. He'd carefully cleared an area of weeds by the roadside, to offer his horses some grazing. Everything was very neat and tidy. Once he'd moved on, there was not a scrap of litter left behind. Another 'civilised' traveller, I reckon.
And there are those who have no travelling heritage at all. On one of my first days in land management we went down to see a traveller who had encamped upon a triangle of grass. We went to tell him to leave and he said he would shortly, apparently he turned up around that time every year and there was an unwritten understanding that we wouldn't immediately get arsey and he knew that three or four days was the limit.
He had two horses, a traditional caravan and was making another while on the move. Him woodworking by the fire on a fine spring morning looked idyllic. Not that much was known about him but he wasn't a Romany or from a travelling background, he'd just decided to live that way. And though there was no mess we'd have been upset about the fire, the horse droppings, the grazing, could easily have upset a more gentrified village. And nearly all villages are gentrified now.
I'm not claiming that my vardo-dweller was a true Romani, I've no way of telling and anyway this was several years ago. He'd camped by the roadside in open farmland, not in a village. At the place he'd chosen the verge just happens to broaden out to about 5 yards wide, and is in Summer normally thick with hogweed, willowherb, and other rank weeds. He'd carefully scythed these away to expose some grass for the horses and to give himself a living space.
As to horse droppings - well this part of Sussex is very 'horsey' country anyway, so we're all used to that!
I can't see how anyone could have had a complaint about this individual. Your case may of course be different.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity. Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments... --- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
