Alex Salmond - court case concluded

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby pwa » 27 Mar 2020, 8:24am

I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.

Carlton green
Posts: 1006
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Carlton green » 27 Mar 2020, 8:29am

Oldjohnw wrote:
Carlton green wrote:
PH wrote:I don't really understand it, it made more sense when it was a simple two verdict system, Proven and Not Proven, having a not sure verdict just opens up the whole concept of no smoke without fire, though we all know there often is.


Personally I like the not proven verdict / concept because it allows for realism, you can strongly suspect that someone is guilty as charged but through lack of sufficient evidence no offence is sufficiently proven to have taken place. There is some pressure to do away with that verdict but the result will be guilty people being acquitted and innocent people being convicted, best just to say ‘not proven’ and to leave the way open to future events and information.


Or leave an innocent person having s cloud over their head for ever.


That is true but the alternative to that is a polarised judgement that would see the accused either acquitted or convicted. I’d have thought that for an innocent man a not proven verdict is in practice near the same result as an innocent verdict but a guilty verdict would see a penalty imposed. Personally I wouldn’t like my future to be decided by a polarised vote that could feel pushed into convicting me, the alternative of a cloud over me would be a better option.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5774
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Mar 2020, 8:37am

Carlton green wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Carlton green wrote:
Personally I like the not proven verdict / concept because it allows for realism, you can strongly suspect that someone is guilty as charged but through lack of sufficient evidence no offence is sufficiently proven to have taken place. There is some pressure to do away with that verdict but the result will be guilty people being acquitted and innocent people being convicted, best just to say ‘not proven’ and to leave the way open to future events and information.


Or leave an innocent person having s cloud over their head for ever.


That is true but the alternative to that is a polarised judgement that would see the accused either acquitted or convicted. I’d have thought that for an innocent man a not proven verdict is in practice near the same result as an innocent verdict but a guilty verdict would see a penalty imposed. Personally I wouldn’t like my future to be decided by a polarised vote that could feel pushed into convicting me, the alternative of a cloud over me would be a better option.


I think that in Scotland such a verdict only gives credence to that dreadful concept of no smoke without fire. Such a cloud will stop you getting a job and exclude you from society.
John

reohn2
Posts: 40691
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby reohn2 » 27 Mar 2020, 8:47am

pwa wrote:I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.

Me too.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Carlton green
Posts: 1006
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Carlton green » 27 Mar 2020, 8:47am

pwa wrote:I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.


That’s my perspective too. I’m also concerned that the result sends a out a variety of bad messages and is perceived by various other people as ‘permission’ to behave badly in some way. IMHO false witness is a dreadful thing - occasionally it happens and it can be very damaging - but on balance I think that abuse is worse.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5774
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Mar 2020, 9:09am

As far as I know getting 9 people in today's SNP wouldn't be too hard. I don't think Salmond comes away from this very well, but that is not the same as being guilty of rape.
John

Will
Posts: 314
Joined: 16 Jan 2007, 6:39pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Will » 27 Mar 2020, 9:33am

Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.


That’s my perspective too. I’m also concerned that the result sends a out a variety of bad messages and is perceived by various other people as ‘permission’ to behave badly in some way. IMHO false witness is a dreadful thing - occasionally it happens and it can be very damaging - but on balance I think that abuse is worse.


It is The Crown Office & Procurator Fiscal Service that decides on the charges, not the complainer. It is quite possible that the jurors believed a complainers version of events but did not think that it proved he had crossed the line into criminality (and therefore he was found Not Guilty on the charge).

Alex Salmond acquittal = The women made false allegations is taking a very black and white view of the world.

Will

pwa
Posts: 13670
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby pwa » 27 Mar 2020, 9:37am

Will wrote:
Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.


That’s my perspective too. I’m also concerned that the result sends a out a variety of bad messages and is perceived by various other people as ‘permission’ to behave badly in some way. IMHO false witness is a dreadful thing - occasionally it happens and it can be very damaging - but on balance I think that abuse is worse.


It is The Crown Office & Procurator Fiscal Service that decides on the charges, not the complainer. It is quite possible that the jurors believed a complainers version of events but did not think that it proved he had crossed the line into criminality (and therefore he was found Not Guilty on the charge).

Alex Salmond acquittal = The women made false allegations is taking a very black and white view of the world.

Will

I see what you mean. Perhaps he was an unreconstructed bottom patter who overstepped the mark but not far enough to merit it being called a crime? Perhaps.

carpetcleaner
Posts: 920
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby carpetcleaner » 27 Mar 2020, 9:48am

pwa wrote:I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.


It has happened before when many more than nine people made accusations and they were completely ignored and the cases never even made it to trial for years if at all. and even when some of those cases did eventually make it to trial strict reporting restrictions were imposed.

Anyone who has followed the news over recent years will know what I'm talking about.

The justice system is suffering from the effects of political correctness which is hardly surprising at it is part of the public sector.

reohn2
Posts: 40691
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby reohn2 » 27 Mar 2020, 9:59am

political correctness

noun

the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.
-----------------------------------------------------------

merseymouth
Posts: 2089
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby merseymouth » 27 Mar 2020, 10:08am

Morning all, Simple question - In either England or Scotland would a jury composed entirely of women have cleared?
The point about the reduction of jurors is a perfectly valid one, fixed number for conviction with a harder percentage target.
If losing 2 jurors had moved the target down to say 7 would he have had such a nice outcome for Salmond?
Too many creepy pawers in the world with awful social skills! MM

carpetcleaner
Posts: 920
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby carpetcleaner » 27 Mar 2020, 10:20am

merseymouth wrote:Morning all, Simple question - In either England or Scotland would a jury composed entirely of women have cleared?
The point about the reduction of jurors is a perfectly valid one, fixed number for conviction with a harder percentage target.
If losing 2 jurors had moved the target down to say 7 would he have had such a nice outcome for Salmond?
Too many creepy pawers in the world with awful social skills! MM


I thought juries were supposed to be representative of the people. The people are not all women.

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 5657
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Paulatic » 27 Mar 2020, 10:36am

Oldjohnw wrote:I think that in Scotland such a verdict only gives credence to that dreadful concept of no smoke without fire. Such a cloud will stop you getting a job and exclude you from society.


This is exactly why after CV there will be, I’m sure, an inquiry into the conspiracy theory.
Don’t forget that alongside this one 'non proven' verdict there were 12 'not guilty' charges.
I’m not going to stick my neck above the parapet and say one way or another about the case but I will accept the findings so far.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/
E2E info

Carlton green
Posts: 1006
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby Carlton green » 27 Mar 2020, 11:29am

carpetcleaner wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Morning all, Simple question - In either England or Scotland would a jury composed entirely of women have cleared?
The point about the reduction of jurors is a perfectly valid one, fixed number for conviction with a harder percentage target.
If losing 2 jurors had moved the target down to say 7 would he have had such a nice outcome for Salmond?
Too many creepy pawers in the world with awful social skills! MM


I thought juries were supposed to be representative of the people. The people are not all women.


Being Male or female does not stop you reasonably representing other people and so shouldn’t (but might) be a factor in jury selection. However, in my experience women can form very dispassionate, independent and analytical decisions, their observation of the female witnesses would likely have insights typically outside of male experience. A male jury might well hold back on another Male, bias in favour if the defendant ‘cause that ‘could be me in the Dock’. Women can be hard on other women and they are aware that they are judging some other women’s husband, brother or father.

Would an all female jury have been better. For the sake of loosing wider perspectives probably not, but one with say 70% female would almost certainly be helpful towards ensuring a fair judgement.
Last edited by Carlton green on 27 Mar 2020, 11:30am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1526
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Alex Salmond Charged with Attempted Rape

Postby georgew » 27 Mar 2020, 11:30am

[quote="pwa"]I find this case troubling. How many people accused him? Nine? [/How likely is it that so many people would make false claims? I'm struggling to think of a scenario in which that would happen.quote]


Yeah......you're struggling as you don't know enough of the background.

Alex Salmond had announced in 2018 that he was intending to re-entering politics and this was in May. His doing so represented a threat to the present SNP leadership given his political stature. In August of the same year, there began an investigation of alleged sexual offenses which involved members of the present First Minister's coterie.....alleged offenses which occurred five years earlier. The permanent Secretary then began an internal investigation which was so biased and flawed that it evoked a lawsuit by Salmond which was successful, and he was awarded damages. Nevertheless, the Scottish Government proceeded with these allegations and the Police then embarked upon a two-year trawling exercise which involved twenty officers and four hundred interviews, searching for complainants. The trial which then ensued uncovered emails and other material which showed a concerted effort by the complainants to smear Salmond, the result of which ensured the failure of his attempt to re-enter politics. It was clear that the trial should never have taken place, such was the paucity of the evidence, and the whole thing emitted a strong odour of rotting fish.

Once the present emergency is over there are going to be repercussions as Salmond will pursue in Court those found to be responsible for this farce.