Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Oldjohnw » 6 Feb 2019, 8:36pm

Except Kings College Chapel, Cambridge perhaps (I have an egg in both camps :wink:)
Is Oxford Prison still open? It is/was by the road from Carfax/Quatre Foix to the station


Now Malmaison Hotel.
John

Cycling and recycling

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Sweep
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Location: London

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Sweep » 6 Feb 2019, 9:46pm

thelawnet wrote:My parents went through the grammar school system, and it worked quite well then, in that my grandparents were working class left school at 11, but had three children university educated including one at Oxford. But now it's just another game for the middle class to play.


There's a sad sad truth in that last sentence of yours lawnet. As you are no doubt aware.
Sweep

thelawnet
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby thelawnet » 6 Feb 2019, 9:58pm

NUKe wrote:My daughter is currently reading Maths at Oxford. She got there on her own merits, she was educated at the local comprehensive. I am of course very proud of her. Her friends are all from very different backgrounds, as she says she is two steps away from Boris Johnson, one of her friends mother was chatted up once by Boris and turned him down. Yes there is still wealth and privilege at Oxford, but they are changing. Its not surprising though that many are from Public schools, those school set out from day 1 to train their pupils for this path in life. its not the Public schools that should be stopped but the state ones that need to up there game. Both Oxford and Cambridge do outreach but often its too little too late. A friend of mine who had taught in both systems when asked why she thought the public schools did better she would say " confidence" they are brought up to think it is there right to succeed.


There are 'local comprehensives' & 'local comprehensives' though. I went to a comprehensive & Cambridge, but it wasn't the bad comprehensive in my (rather nice) town, it was the good comprehensive, with other ambitious people in it.

I think there are at this point:

* certain immigrant groups which are very academically ambitious and tend to get their children through the state education system into a good university & a career, without necessarily being middle class on paper
* middle class white people who do the same, via the 'good comprehensive', or the 'grammar school'
* more wealthy people (not necessarily white, as the private system is more flexible for expats, etc.) who use private education to get the same and maybe more
* an underclass, mostly but not only white, of schools and areas where there is little ambition and very low chance of success. Possibly this is linked to the benefits system, and other social factors?

I think the BBC et al find it quite convenient to talk about Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson etc as a sort of symbol of undeserving privilege. But it's not really clear what they are proposing to do about it - there are certain careers where you may need to spend six years or more without earning to get in, and clearly this advantages those who can afford to spend six years without earning. But short of some sort of mass confiscation of private property there's little you can do to stop that, nor indeed networking - if you own an oil company, nobody's going to stop you giving your son a job.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby PDQ Mobile » 6 Feb 2019, 11:33pm

landsurfer wrote:I've been to Oxford and Cambridge ..... the're overrated !
Silly Punts .. all of them .... :mrgreen:



Far too many moons ago, in the early hours of a lovely summer morning, first crack of dawn in the sky.
The season of the famed College Balls.

I was in a house that overlooked the Thames at Folly Bridge, Oxford.
A punt came from the direction of Christchurch Meadow, travelling upstream, fast.
It was "Captained" by a fit looking, muscular man in a suit and he punted with a skill and power acquired only after much practice. (a "Thames" pole is longer and more difficult).
His passenger was a beautiful young woman in a long blue ball gown, very serene, hand trailing in the water.
The fellow executed the most perfect fast 180 degree turn and brought the punt to a bobbing rest against the floating quay of what today is the "Head of the River" pub but at that time was a commercial premises.
He nimbly alighted, lay down the pole, threw a quick mooring line around a hook, and then offered a hand to his passenger.
She took it, stepped delicately ashore and they walked away arm in arm towards the city unaware of their being observed from afar.
I never saw a more masterful punter, and I have known one or two very accomplished ones.
And I never forgot his style!

brynpoeth
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby brynpoeth » 7 Feb 2019, 12:01am

What class, Plus One! Perhaps you were unknowingly watching a filming of 'Zuleika Dobson' :wink:

Not sure how much it matters where one is educated, if it matters whether or not one has power or is very rich
Plenty of' 'uneducated' people are very happy. Health and family are more important I think
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott

Hobbs1951
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Joined: 15 Apr 2014, 10:48am

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Hobbs1951 » 7 Feb 2019, 7:15am

What is wrong with elites ?

John.

nirakaro
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Joined: 22 Dec 2007, 2:01am

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby nirakaro » 7 Feb 2019, 8:00am

Hobbs1951 wrote:What is wrong with elites ?

John.

Wealth seeks political power, and uses the power to enhance its wealth, at the expense of others. The core purpose of democracy is to discourage this, and the strength of a democracy can be judged by how well it does so.

Stradageek
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Stradageek » 7 Feb 2019, 8:11am

Hobbs1951 wrote:What is wrong with elites ?

John.


As I posted earlier, I would really recommend reading 'The Spirit Level - Why equality is better for everyone'. The issues are complicated but solutions exist and it takes a well researched book to explain it all

Cheers

Stradageek

Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Feb 2019, 8:29am

According to a R4 programme the other day the most likely determining factor in going to university is if your parents did.

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Oldjohnw » 7 Feb 2019, 8:53am

Ben@Forest wrote:According to a R4 programme the other day the most likely determining factor in going to university is if your parents did.



Interesting, given so many people are the first in a family to attend university.
John

Cycling and recycling

Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Feb 2019, 9:51am

Oldjohnw wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:According to a R4 programme the other day the most likely determining factor in going to university is if your parents did.


Interesting, given so many people are the first in a family to attend university.


Yes I also wondered about mature students both at universities and the OU. My wife, a nurse, got her part-time study degree about 10 years after qualifying with different (nursing) qualification.

The graduation ceremony was those getting degrees in nursing and social care only. It was dominated by thirty-something to middle-aged women and a considerable amount got a Third. I can imagine why if you're juggling a job, kids and are in profession which has become degree oriented.

reohn2
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby reohn2 » 7 Feb 2019, 10:05am

nirakaro wrote:
Hobbs1951 wrote:What is wrong with elites ?

John.

Wealth seeks political power, and uses the power to enhance its wealth, at the expense of others. The core purpose of democracy is to discourage this, and the strength of a democracy can be judged by how well it does so.

Quite!
The present system of government and education display all that's wrong with 'elites'.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Feb 2019, 10:16am

Well I'm really proud of my mum for being among the first to take up the OU and gain a degree while working and looking after young kids. She made the papers because of it. It was changing the face of education. One guy who graduated with her made the front cover of the OU alumni magazine having just got his 7th OU degree.

IMHO institutions like the OU have done so much for furthering people's prospects in life. The very fact that most good universities are investing heavily in developing distance and online learning courses and degrees show how ahead of its time the OU was. I wonder if more graduates will come from such forms of education than traditional campus education.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby roubaixtuesday » 7 Feb 2019, 10:34am

I think there is a place for both elite institutions of learning and scholarship, *and* an imperative for learning to be a much higher priority for funding and cherishing among people of all ages and abilities.

The issue with Oxbridge is not that it's academically elite, it's that it's *not* sufficiently academically elite but rather both deliberately and inadvertently socially elite. The UK, IMHO, suffers from not enough of the former and far too much of the latter.

Full disclosure: I went to the local comp then Cambridge and have a first class degree. My son likewise has recently started at Cambridge, again after going to our local comp.

reohn2
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Re: Oxbridge Elite Or Intelligent

Postby reohn2 » 7 Feb 2019, 10:38am

roubaixtuesday wrote:.......The issue with Oxbridge is not that it's academically elite, it's that it's *not* sufficiently academically elite but rather both deliberately and inadvertently socially elite. The UK, IMHO, suffers from not enough of the former and far too much of the latter......


I think that's the heart of the problem,the system is still very class ridden to the rest of the country's detriment.
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