Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

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pete75
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby pete75 » 11 Feb 2019, 8:55pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Are republicans in ulster also ulstermen? Sorry for my ignorance but isn't ulster the collective name for 5 counties on the island of Ireland. If you're living and from there are you not one of them or is it purely reserved for unionists? What are republicans called so live in those 5 counties?

One point there's a significant minority in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland who want independence from the union. Anyone got a clue what percentage in each nation / region? Anyone know how many English want out of the union too. I refer to the older union of the United Kingdom not European Union of course.


Ulster consists of nine counties.
Some of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland, some of it is in the UK and wants to be, some of it is in the the UK and doesn't want to be.

brynpoeth
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Feb 2019, 8:57pm

Six counties, 'Fatlad' = NI/GB
Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Derry*, Antrim, Down

*or Londonderry, the keyboard wanted to change it to' Derby' :wink:

Which are the other three, Donegal? &?

The Republic is the 'lower twenty-six' counties
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Feb 2019, 9:02pm

So the 5 counties are the UK part of ulster is what I thought. The remaining 4 counties must be in the Republic.

An ulstermen in the 5 counties in the UK could fight for or against staying in the UK depending on political leanings. Just like people in the nations of UK.

Am I right in saying NI is a region not a nation? Does it have any difference in status because of that as opposed to its special status due to its shall we say complicated history?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Feb 2019, 9:03pm

Ok 6 counties. Not an area I've had much dealings with.

pete75
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby pete75 » 11 Feb 2019, 9:04pm

brynpoeth wrote:Six counties, 'Fatlad' = NI/GB
Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Derry*, Antrim, Down

*or Londonderry, the keyboard wanted to change it to' Derby' :wink:

Which are the other three, Donegal? &?

The Republic is the 'lower twenty-six' counties


No it's not - the most northerly parts of Ireland are in the Republic.

Image

slowster
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby slowster » 11 Feb 2019, 9:18pm

landsurfer wrote:Please explain to this immigrant, of Irish lineage, a subjugated minority , .. why it's funny ...?

It's funny because it takes a traditional format of a joke which often relies on stereotypical prejudices against minority groups (e.g. typically in such jokes the Irishman is thick and/or the Scot is mean) and turns it on its head. Instead it's the Englishman* who is mean/a thief and attempts to cheat, only for his own deviousness to backfire on him in a way that also includes a clever bit of wordplay (something that often features in the humour of many English speaking peoples).

* I think it's acceptable and funny precisely because the English are the larger group in the four nations and are not a minority which has historically been discriminated against, and instead have mostly been the dominant nation in the history of these islands. So it is acceptable for an Englishman to be the butt of such a joke in a way that it would not be for the others. Context and the balance of power between people/races/nations can be everything when it comes to humour.

brynpoeth
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Feb 2019, 6:09am

Plus Two for complicated jokes that one does not quite understand
I am a bit Welsh, German, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh first :wink:

May one choose ones nationality?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2019, 8:11am

Can one choose their nationality? You're British Bryn. Wales is not a sovereign nation. :wink:

I use the term sovereign nation to mean the one that's dealing with other sovereign nations in an international stage. Unfortunately it's not Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland or England that's sitting on the security Council of the UN or trying to leave the EU, it's Britain / United Kingdom.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Ben@Forest » 12 Feb 2019, 10:25am

slowster wrote:* I think it's acceptable and funny precisely because the English are the larger group in the four nations and are not a minority which has historically been discriminated against, and instead have mostly been the dominant nation in the history of these islands. So it is acceptable for an Englishman to be the butt of such a joke in a way that it would not be for the others. Context and the balance of power between people/races/nations can be everything when it comes to humour.


Of course the reason for this thread was a joke that was told by an Irishman and the butt of the joke was the Scotsman - is that therefore unacceptable? And many jokes of this ilk are like this; it's not as simple as saying it's about the stupidity, meanness or arrogance of any one nationality. And these jokes were variously about Chinese, Japanese, Americans, French or Germans and sometimes the perceived traits of these nationalities made them either the butt or the 'winner' of the joke.

Either one has to accept these jokes are generally light-hearted and not malicious or you have to ban them all - saying it's OK for some but not others to tell them can't work.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2019, 10:56am

I'm English so as a member of the larger nation / region I should accept that I can only be the butt of such jokes never nation coming out on top? How is that acceptable?

If it's not right to denigrate minorities how is it right to denigrate majorities? They're both made up of people you're poking fun at. It might not be fun for them.

BTW if I went to the Isle of Bute in winter and someone told a joke about the English. I would be the minority. So does the location and ethnicity profile of an area affect a racist joke's acceptability?

I just need to know.

Personally I laugh at a joke of it's funny. If that joke pokes fun at a nationality, even my own, if it's a funny joke that's not playing on stereotypes in a clear and obviously offensive way then if it's funny I'll be amused. Although to be fair I've never found those sorts of jokes that funny. Perhaps better to consign them to the dustbin of comedy with the MiL jokes and jokes using the n word to describe black people.

Vorpal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Vorpal » 12 Feb 2019, 11:03am

brynpoeth wrote:May one choose ones nationality?

Some people can!
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2019, 11:13am

I'm Terran, my nation is planet earth. Although I've been accused of coming from Mars but she was only a venetian so I ignored her pov! :wink: :D

slowster
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby slowster » 12 Feb 2019, 12:00pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I'm English so as a member of the larger nation / region I should accept that I can only be the butt of such jokes never nation coming out on top? How is that acceptable?

If it's not right to denigrate minorities how is it right to denigrate majorities? They're both made up of people you're poking fun at. It might not be fun for them.

BTW if I went to the Isle of Bute in winter and someone told a joke about the English. I would be the minority. So does the location and ethnicity profile of an area affect a racist joke's acceptability?

I just need to know.

Personally I laugh at a joke of it's funny. If that joke pokes fun at a nationality, even my own, if it's a funny joke that's not playing on stereotypes in a clear and obviously offensive way then if it's funny I'll be amused. Although to be fair I've never found those sorts of jokes that funny. Perhaps better to consign them to the dustbin of comedy with the MiL jokes and jokes using the n word to describe black people.

Context is often everything; that includes who the teller is, who the audience is, the circumstances in which the joke is told etc. etc., and obviously people's sense of humour does vary and they find different things funny.

As an Englishman I am not offended by the Englishman being the butt of the joke above. It's different for a minority group that has repeatedly been the butt of similar jokes that rely on the same old oft repeated offensive stereotype, e.g. Scotsmen are mean. If you were the sole Englishman in a Scottish village and one or more of the villagers told anti-English jokes with you present, that would probably be offensive, and bullying if they did so multiple times.

For the most extreme example of context is everything, see this famous stand up routine of Chris Rock's. I doubt you will find it funny, for the same reasons that I don't, but note that his audience did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4

rfryer
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby rfryer » 12 Feb 2019, 12:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I'm Terran, my nation is planet earth. Although I've been accused of coming from Mars but she was only a venetian so I ignored her pov! :wink: :D

Venetians often have a limited view. Those that aren't blind(s). :lol:

Tangled Metal
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Re: Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman...

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2019, 3:29pm

Seen that CR gig on TV. Had me smirking along with the audience. One funny guy!

At what point does a joke switch from having some group as the butt of the joke to being anti that group? Is making out a Yorkshireman is strong in arm but... Offensive or a joke lyric with them as the subject? Being from Lancashire I have my opinions! :wink:

Seriously though a head copper once got a good crime reduction results by applying zero tolerance to the minor stuff which led to the serious stuff being reduced. Wasn't it the ne England? The same argument could apply to racism or any ism we oppose at the extreme end of the spectrum. Stop with the low level abusive jokes and the high level abuse might get reduced too.

BTW nobody seriously expects a comedian to get away with a MiL joke on national TV now but it was common not that long ago. Why is that the case and yet any joke on national stereotypes is still accepted? Times change and it will change for this topic too one day.

National divisions too will