Techno Innovation?

[Oldjohnw]

I like my CDs (mainly classical) because I like to read about the opus etc. Although a couple of years ago I got paid for Spotify and wireless headphones and I can listen to anything I want, whenever I want, or I can play through my stereo system.

[al_yrpal]

I think most of us over a certain age had some sort of record player and a collection of records.
Why was this, because at that time it was the only way to play music in the home.
I found the advent of stereo a real wonder and spent £££'s buying and updating my system.
Today, unless I liked the idea of playing music on a record I'd not bother. Many other ways to listen to music with no fuss, no storage problems and a decent sound.
Aficionados will praise the advantage of vinyl and gloss over the cost and inconvenience.
By the way I stiil have my old turntable, tape deck, cassette player and tuner stored away in the loft, not really sure why apart from nostalgia

I agree, its a bit like the present craze for 'vintage' clothing and furniture. We love it! We live it! In the same category falls the Classic Car and even Classic Bikes. I love my Mercian and my 1980 VW Camper too, it wheezes and rattles and creeps up steep hills ( same as me on the Mercian). I wish we lived in an age of Arts and Crafts and Art Deco. Nostalgia is great, not everything in the present age is great or the best... Definately applies to music in spades.

Al

[mercalia]

Yes, a lot of folk enjoy the somewhat warmer sound of vinyl and the exercise you get having to stand up and turn the disk over or change the disk. In addition you get a sleeve to admire and sleeve notes to cherish. Bands love the extra income and you can get even more from a special silver or gold one and it encourages fans to come to gigs and get the sleeves signed.
Win win for punters and artists.

Al

thats a bad record player. My record player sound is almost the same as my cd player. I have a few Lps and Cds of the same work so can compare.

You obviously havent got a Hi Fi amplifier otherwise you would instantly appreciate the difference. Personally I mostly stream stuff from a service called Tidal which is better quality and rewards artists more generously. I have a limited selection of vinyls.

Al

I do actually - Roksan Xerxes turntable that cost an arm and a leg, the cartridge a modest £300 or so. With Audiolab 8200cdq preamp/cd spinner and 2x120watt 8000M power amps. And the cds/LPs I compare are almost identical or are so even down to the recording faults decsions clearly heard

[kwackers]

I do actually - Roksan Xerxes turntable that cost an arm and a leg, the cartridge a modest £300 or so. With Audiolab 8200cdq preamp/cd spinner and 2x120watt 8000M power amps. And the cds/LPs I cpmare are almost identical even down to the recording faults decsions clearly heard

When I worked at Sony we had access to some fairly switched on pro gear.

One test we used to do was run a ADC to a DAC, balance them up and do blind tests, switching in the digital or analogue paths driven from an analogue source.
The audio engineers would step through the bit rates of the devices and test folk with them. At CD bit rates almost everyone could tell whether the digital path was switched in, at 96 khz about half could tell and a couple of folk could tell at 256 khz.

I was borderline at 96 khz, if it was a voice I could tell 100% of the time, but if it was instrumental then I'd get it right 70%.

What was far more interesting to me was trying to figure out what was different.
We'd go out of blind mode and switch between the two ourselves to try and figure out what we could hear. Trouble was as you picked it apart pretty much every bit you thought was different wasn't.
It was very odd. At CD bit rates it was night and day but I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. The best I could come up with was my brain knew one was a recording whilst the other sounded 'real'.

What is sound though?
We know that vision is an illusion, presumably sound is too. If so then what you think you hear isn't necessarily a good replication of the noise.
Perhaps there are artefacts created by the digital process that we can hear but aren't processed to become part of the internal hallucination that is our world but are still noticed by the brain?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Am I the only one who can identify crosstalk between record track grooves.
Mostly noticeable before the music starts, Or a Quieter passage before or after a loud one.

[mercalia]

I do actually - Roksan Xerxes turntable that cost an arm and a leg, the cartridge a modest £300 or so. With Audiolab 8200cdq preamp/cd spinner and 2x120watt 8000M power amps. And the cds/LPs I cpmare are almost identical even down to the recording faults decsions clearly heard

When I worked at Sony we had access to some fairly switched on pro gear.

One test we used to do was run a ADC to a DAC, balance them up and do blind tests, switching in the digital or analogue paths driven from an analogue source.
The audio engineers would step through the bit rates of the devices and test folk with them. At CD bit rates almost everyone could tell whether the digital path was switched in, at 96 khz about half could tell and a couple of folk could tell at 256 khz.

I was borderline at 96 khz, if it was a voice I could tell 100% of the time, but if it was instrumental then I'd get it right 70%.

What was far more interesting to me was trying to figure out what was different.
We'd go out of blind mode and switch between the two ourselves to try and figure out what we could hear. Trouble was as you picked it apart pretty much every bit you thought was different wasn't.
It was very odd. At CD bit rates it was night and day but I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. The best I could come up with was my brain knew one was a recording whilst the other sounded 'real'.

What is sound though?
We know that vision is an illusion, presumably sound is too. If so then what you think you hear isn't necessarily a good replication of the noise.
Perhaps there are artefacts created by the digital process that we can hear but aren't processed to become part of the internal hallucination that is our world but are still noticed by the brain?

well maybe one factor Sony didnt consider was which filter to use in their tests? - Most cd players these days have quite a few choices including the standard brickwall filter, that are needed to remove the spurious nasties that standard cd produces as part of the conversion process. My Old Sony cd player had 4 ( I never liked it ) I think, My Audiolab 8200cdq I think 6 or so. The various filters are supposed to sound different from the standard brickwall filter that is supposed to not sound very musical. These filters are NOTsimple tone controls. Given that few can hear above 15khz and when you get to aged 60+s lucky if you can hear beyond 10khz the inadequacy of standard cd is a moot point?

I myself am a bit perplexed by these filters some times I can hear a difference some times not

[Oldjohnw]

I think most of us over a certain age had some sort of record player and a collection of records.
Why was this, because at that time it was the only way to play music in the home.
I found the advent of stereo a real wonder and spent £££'s buying and updating my system.
Today, unless I liked the idea of playing music on a record I'd not bother. Many other ways to listen to music with no fuss, no storage problems and a decent sound.
Aficionados will praise the advantage of vinyl and gloss over the cost and inconvenience.
By the way I stiil have my old turntable, tape deck, cassette player and tuner stored away in the loft, not really sure why apart from nostalgia

I agree, its a bit like the present craze for 'vintage' clothing and furniture. We love it! We live it! In the same category falls the Classic Car and even Classic Bikes. I love my Mercian and my 1980 VW Camper too, it wheezes and rattles and creeps up steep hills ( same as me on the Mercian). I wish we lived in an age of Arts and Crafts and Art Deco. Nostalgia is great, not everything in the present age is great or the best... Definately applies to music in spades.

Al

With you there, although I think I prefer the '50s. I am sure it is rose tinted spectacles and it was only good for some. I was a child in the 1950s and we were poor, but my memories are sill great.

[kwackers]

well maybe one factor Sony didnt consider was which filter to use - Most cd players these days have quite a few choices including the standard brickwall filter, that are needed to remove the spurious nasties that standard cd produces as part of the conversion process. My Old Sony cd player had 4 ( I never liked it ) I think, My Audiolab 8200cdq I think 6 or so. The various filters are supposed to sound different from the standard brickwall filter that is supposed to not sound very musical. These filters are NOT tone controls. Given that few can hear above 15khz and when you get to aged 60+s lucky if you can hear beyond 10khz the inadequacy of standard cd is a moot point?

Be a bit tricky for me to find out what they used now...

It's not just frequencies though, aliasing is a biggie. Audio is pre-processed to prepare them for conversion before the CD even gets a look in.

I have both CD's and vinyl of lots of albums, ime there are so many factors. Sometimes the CD sounds better, sometimes the vinyl.
The only thing I've found as a rule is anything made in the late 70's, 80's sounds awful.
Most straight recordings from the 50's & 60's can sound amazing *if* you can find a good pressing and always beat the CD version. Mono Beatles albums are usually a good example of this.
Voice usually sounds better on vinyl, orchestral or modern electronic on CD.

In truth the majority of what I listen to simply gets streamed from Spotify though.
Sometimes convenience is the most important thing...

[mercalia]

Yes, a lot of folk enjoy the somewhat warmer sound of vinyl and the exercise you get having to stand up and turn the disk over or change the disk. In addition you get a sleeve to admire and sleeve notes to cherish. Bands love the extra income and you can get even more from a special silver or gold one and it encourages fans to come to gigs and get the sleeves signed.
Win win for punters and artists.

Al

thats a bad record player. My record player sound is almost the same as my cd player. I have a few Lps and Cds of the same work so can compare.

Are they the same master?
CDs are inherently (just) beyond the limit of human hearing... but we don’t seem to think we need more than that when we buy a TV, we don’t buy them with ‘ultra wide frequency range - UV and IR display’

It’s very difficult to actually do an A/B comparison of audio sources.

Mine are classical so probably are. I think I am lucky in the various componants Analogue or digital do work together to produce an identical sound as who wants to have to worry which is the correct sound?

[al_yrpal]

With you there, although I think I prefer the '50s. I am sure it is rose tinted spectacles and it was only good for some. I was a child in the 1950s and we were poor, but my memories are sill great.

Same here, I like the good bits from many past eras, right back to the 17th Century. My daughter has literally dozens of vintage dresses, some from the 50s. My love of music was rooted in listening to my Dads radiogram.

Al

[Audax67]

Yoofs buy Lps just for the kudos or art work but never play them as they dont have a record player.

We've got a loft full of records - LPs, EPs and singles. A few dating back to the early 60s when I first started buying them.

Well worn and tired, but we've not had a record player for twenty years.
Before anyone says it, yes, I'm well worn and tired too.

Closer to 78 than 45, Mick? Yeah, me too. Too many RPM.

[francovendee]

With you there, although I think I prefer the '50s. I am sure it is rose tinted spectacles and it was only good for some. I was a child in the 1950s and we were poor, but my memories are sill great.

Same here, I like the good bits from many past eras, right back to the 17th Century. My daughter has literally dozens of vintage dresses, some from the 50s. My love of music was rooted in listening to my Dads radiogram.

Al

Now there's a thing, a radiogram. My parents had one, massive piece of polished walnut. This would have been in the 50's. I'm sure someone somewhere collects them today.
I'm sort of with you on musical tastes. I'll give every type of music a try and the only one I really can't stand is Rap. I recently went to hear a friend sing in a choir, all religious music but accompanied by medieval instruments, I was a bit doubtful about going but ended up enjoying it .

[al_yrpal]

Franco, I notice that people often stay frozen into the music of their youth, its a good way to miss so much IMO. I agree about C(Rap) and its offshoots, its no doubt an Art form but it takes up broadcasting time which should be allotted to music. I enjoy watching old TOTPs and note that the 80s was plagued with totally forgetable American groups no doubt delivered by Pluggers. The Beeb does a pretty good job of delivering all sorts of music with BBC R6 Music being a treasure chest of new sounds and artists.

Different types of media and different types of equipment deliver different versions of true sound. Most serious music fans that I talk to agree that sound from vinyl is warmer. Artists love vinyl it makes them a bit of extra income in an industry that you have to work very hard in (or be very lucky) to make a decent living.

Al

[mercalia]

How the venerable Linn Sondek is made
[youtube]IdTIpKu-ewg[/youtube]