Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 45543
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Mick F » 17 Feb 2019, 3:58pm

NUKe wrote:
tatanab wrote:Press reports say the child has been born. Does this child hold the nationality of the mother (British), father (Dutch) or place of birth? Again a real question because I do not know how these things work.

None until it’s registered, but it potentially has the right to all 3, under international law.
Yep, but it's more complicated if you take the argument to extreme.

If my parents were astronauts, and I was born on Mars, would that make me a Martian?
Christ was born in a stable. Did that make Him a horse?

The child has been born from a British mother and a Dutch father. The fact that the child was born in a foreign country at the time, doesn't dictate specific nationality.
Mick F. Cornwall

landsurfer
Posts: 4613
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby landsurfer » 17 Feb 2019, 4:09pm

dodger wrote:
SHE WAS ONLY 15. She probably spent most of her time caring for her children and doing what the men, including her husband, told her.
All the vitriol might be better directed at the odious right wing extremists that permeate parts of our society. The threat from them is real, not imagined and it seems to me people like Trump and Farage simply demonize immigrants and people who are different to them purely as a political tool. What they do is end up encouraging violence and hatred and pretend that it is patriotism.


Right wing extremists .... are you real .... .. Their the greatest threat to UK citizens ? ???

Reality check ....

Project Fear of the far right or the actual, tangible deaths, nearly a hundred if you've forgotten, of British and other citizens in the UK, by Islamic terrorists....

This is exactly why we cannot let her back ....

:twisted:
“I’m responsible only for what I say, not what you understand.”

The Road Goes on Forever.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6344
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Feb 2019, 5:22pm

I have a good degree of confidence that the security services can contain the threat posed by a 19 year old woman and her baby, were she to find a way to return.

reohn2
Posts: 34659
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 17 Feb 2019, 5:37pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I have a good degree of confidence that the security services can contain the threat posed by a 19 year old woman and her baby, were she to find a way to return.

Quite!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9167
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Cunobelin » 17 Feb 2019, 6:19pm

I have a feeling that the latest Tweets from Trump highlight part of the problem

With the defeat of IS there will be s lot of people trying to return to their “home countries”

Some will be more successful than others, and there needs to be a fair and robust system of dealing with them

On the other hand what Abbott those who fought against IS

They made equally “radical decisions” to fight, and is their killing any more “legally justified” under UK law?


Anyone who has chosen to travel abroad to kill should be treated equally

... and note the use of the word “chosen” ..... the UK Armed Forces operate under the instruction of the Government

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 8635
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby 661-Pete » 17 Feb 2019, 8:41pm

If "deradicalisation" actually worked, this unfortunate woman and her child could I suppose be allowed home on condition that she undergo such a programme.

However the efficacy of programmes like Prevent has long been cast into doubt. See here.

It occurs to me that in bygone days, depriving 'undesirables' of the right to reside in the UK was a part of the penal code. Witness transportations to Botany Bay. Look up Great Expectations for a good example!

If this British-born woman is forcibly exiled, is that not an application of the same archaic process? Without due trial in the courts?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5209
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Feb 2019, 8:57pm

100 people killed by Islamic terrorists in the UK? That's terrible.

Anyone know what the death rate of UK gangs, county lines drug dealing gangs? AIUI these gangs also groom kids to do their dirty work. I bet they're more of a threat to our country than ex isis child brides. Especially if they're contained and are prevented from getting the means to carry out terrorist attack they take resources a 19 year old woman just back from 4 years living in a dark place like ISIS controlled Syria.

dodger
Posts: 621
Joined: 28 Jan 2007, 9:33pm
Location: East Cornwall

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby dodger » 17 Feb 2019, 9:05pm

landsurfer wrote:
dodger wrote:
SHE WAS ONLY 15. She probably spent most of her time caring for her children and doing what the men, including her husband, told her.
All the vitriol might be better directed at the odious right wing extremists that permeate parts of our society. The threat from them is real, not imagined and it seems to me people like Trump and Farage simply demonize immigrants and people who are different to them purely as a political tool. What they do is end up encouraging violence and hatred and pretend that it is patriotism.


Right wing extremists .... are you real .... .. Their the greatest threat to UK citizens ? ???

Reality check ....

Project Fear of the far right or the actual, tangible deaths, nearly a hundred if you've forgotten, of British and other citizens in the UK, by Islamic terrorists....

This is exactly why we cannot let her back ....

:twisted:


How many has she killed?
What do you really know about this girl? Evil incarnate or deluded child?
Seems to me there's an awful lot of misdirected hate at this person and it's difficult to understand the motivation.
How many more times do we need to remember she was silly, led astray, maybe with misplaced idealism.
How does that make her a hardened terrorist?

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1239
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Feb 2019, 2:48am

I believe that the "100 dead from terrorism " is 100 since 2001 in the UK.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7613/CBP-7613.pdf
John

Cycling and recycling

landsurfer
Posts: 4613
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby landsurfer » 18 Feb 2019, 5:47am

Oldjohnw wrote:I believe that the "100 dead from terrorism " is 100 since 2001 in the UK.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7613/CBP-7613.pdf


Thank you for that John.
Last edited by landsurfer on 18 Feb 2019, 5:53am, edited 1 time in total.
“I’m responsible only for what I say, not what you understand.”

The Road Goes on Forever.

landsurfer
Posts: 4613
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby landsurfer » 18 Feb 2019, 5:52am

dodger wrote:
How many has she killed?
What do you really know about this girl? Evil incarnate or deluded child?
Seems to me there's an awful lot of misdirected hate at this person and it's difficult to understand the motivation.
How many more times do we need to remember she was silly, led astray, maybe with misplaced idealism.
How does that make her a hardened terrorist?


Line by line;
1. I have no idea, do you?
2. Only what i have read in the Grauniad and the Telegraph.
3. I feel absolutely no hatred or enmity of any type towards this woman and her child. I simply believe she would be a threat to our population.
4. So we keep being reminded, but only by those that want her back.
5. "I have no regrets."
“I’m responsible only for what I say, not what you understand.”

The Road Goes on Forever.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9167
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Feb 2019, 6:33am

661-Pete wrote:If "deradicalisation" actually worked, this unfortunate woman and her child could I suppose be allowed home on condition that she undergo such a programme.

However the efficacy of programmes like Prevent has long been cast into doubt. See here.

It occurs to me that in bygone days, depriving 'undesirables' of the right to reside in the UK was a part of the penal code. Witness transportations to Botany Bay. Look up Great Expectations for a good example!

If this British-born woman is forcibly exiled, is that not an application of the same archaic process? Without due trial in the courts?


An unfortunate example.

Many young women were deported for the most menial crimes to provide a "breeding stock" for the new colony.

The new colony struggled from the start. Diseases like scurvy and dysentery had taken a toll on the settlers even before they had arrived, and food rations quickly began to run low. To make matters worse, the settlers were inexperienced farmers and lacked sufficient labor, so their crops were meager and they lost much of their livestock. Distraught, the colonists turned their anger toward the local aboriginal peoples and, in the summer of 1789, a Botany Bay marine was accused of raping an eight-year-old girl. Reports of such atrocities as well as the colonist’s difficulties soon reached Lord Sydney’s right-hand man, British Home Under-Secretary Evan Nepean. Nepean decided that, in order for the new colony to prosper, it would need more than just increased provisions and supplies — it would need the stability created by more women, children, and families. To this end, Nepean ordered a shipment of female convicts to immediately be sent to Sydney Cove and “upon landing, promote a matrimonial connection to improve morals and secure settlement.”

In response to Nepean’s command, 225 female thieves, prostitutes, con artists, and some five infants were rounded up from prisons in London and the English countryside to be shipped off to the failing Sydney Cove colony aboard the Lady Juliana. For the English government, the female convicts were to serve two purposes: to prevent the starving and isolated male colonists from engaging in “gross irregularities” and to act as a breeding stock for the troubled settlement.

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1856
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Ben@Forest » 18 Feb 2019, 8:01am

The new colony struggled from the start. Diseases like scurvy and dysentery had taken a toll on the settlers even before they had arrived, and food rations quickly began to run low. To make matters worse, the settlers were inexperienced farmers and lacked sufficient labor, so their crops were meager and they lost much of their livestock...


But this was the fate of a huge number of early colonists whether criminals or not. The death rate of colonists in what is now the USA was huge, but because by then there was money to be made in tobacco people kept coming and kept investing. Hence of course Golden Virginia - l expect it still exists.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5209
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Feb 2019, 9:26am

landsurfer wrote:
dodger wrote:
How many has she killed?
What do you really know about this girl? Evil incarnate or deluded child?
Seems to me there's an awful lot of misdirected hate at this person and it's difficult to understand the motivation.
How many more times do we need to remember she was silly, led astray, maybe with misplaced idealism.
How does that make her a hardened terrorist?


Line by line;
1. I have no idea, do you?
2. Only what i have read in the Grauniad and the Telegraph.
3. I feel absolutely no hatred or enmity of any type towards this woman and her child. I simply believe she would be a threat to our population.
4. So we keep being reminded, but only by those that want her back.
5. "I have no regrets."

1. We won't know until we investigate / interrogate her.
2. Both honest and accurate sources of information without bias or use if opinion masquerading as news.
3. You could have fooled me but without knowing you I have to accept that statement. However she's still a potential threat out there, as is every other western isis supporter who went out there. You don't think isis could have the resources to use her if the UK abandons her like you prefer? You think she couldn't get back to the UK or Europe with isis support for evil purposes? Bring her back and she's going to be watched.
4. It seems you don't accept this pov/fact. At what point do we treat kids as adults? 15 or a bit older? Why is that? Kids are kids and think they know everything but often don't. With her background she was hardly going to fit into society all nice and fluffily. How many mistakes were made leading up to this situation? Whether you accept it or not this is another case of the UK state not protecting vulnerable children from abuse. So it's not a simple case.
5. I'll have no regrets if she gets brought back here. I do have regrets that once again the UK social care system has failed. Possibly or more likely probably because of government failure through many administrations.

I guess we're on opposite sides of this debate and must agree to disagree (again). I hope that's OK with you.

landsurfer
Posts: 4613
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby landsurfer » 18 Feb 2019, 9:49am

Tangled Metal wrote:
I guess we're on opposite sides of this debate and must agree to disagree (again). I hope that's OK with you.


Thats fine with me ... reasoned and free debate is the cornerstone of democracy.
“I’m responsible only for what I say, not what you understand.”

The Road Goes on Forever.