Jihadi Brides and their Children.

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landsurfer
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby landsurfer » 2 Jun 2019, 9:13am

reohn2 wrote:And I'm thinking the troubles had a negative effect on you,and likewise on her once faced with it first hand.

EDIT,rewritten for clarity.


Thank you ... i'll park this one and possibly reflect a little ...
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Bonefishblues » 2 Jun 2019, 9:13am

landsurfer wrote:I suppose my view is coloured by living through the worst of the terrorist war in Ulster as a teenager.
My girlfriend, Jenny, was killed in the Abercorn Cafe attack.
Schools blown up, the sound of gunfire throughout the night sometimes, burning buildings. Killing after killing after killing....
Maybe the events from 1969 to 1975 have coloured my approach.
I left Ulster at 17 to join HM Forces in 1975 and in 1978 was back in Belfast but in a uniform carrying an SLR.
Seen stuff from different views ... ?

And yet you seem certain that your version is correct.

I am not - I simply don't know where the truth lies. That's why I want her to be brought back and tried, assuming there are charges that can be laid.

Then we might find the truth of the matter.

Until then, on your version of events, she remains overseas, a rallying point for radicalism, then to be exported, as so often in recent years.

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Mick F
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Mick F » 2 Jun 2019, 9:15am

Bonefishblues wrote: ............ I want her to be brought back and tried, assuming there are charges that can be laid.

Then we might find the truth of the matter.
+1
Mick F. Cornwall

Tangled Metal
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Jun 2019, 10:46pm

I read something about the family life of one of those three schoolgirls who left for Syria when 15 years old. Not sure if it's this woman or one of the others but the life she had started to go wrong long before she left.

Her parents split and she left with her sister and mum. Her mum started to become more orthodox on her Muslim beliefs, indeed verging on radical beliefs. She and her sister were both forced to become isolated from former school classmates and friends. They were forced to read religious texts and other very Conservative Muslim pamphlets.

It was a rather brutal control the mother had over her daughters. How teachers didn't do more about it I don't know. I believe social services had several opportunities to intervene. They failed. This girl was highly primed to find radical and extremist Muslim beliefs. If you're isolated from your own society in the UK because of your family situation and you're in a very Conservative Muslim household. You're so isolated you are highly likely to look for others online with your situation or giving understanding and support.

Basically the girl I read about was deserted by her school, deserted by social services and mistreated by her mum. Perfect target fit isis grooming.

Now as I said I don't recall if it was this woman who was in this article I read, I don't think it is but rather one of them who got killed out there in allied airstrike. However I would expect there's a similar story of isolation from her peers at school, conservative religion and grooming online by ISIS extremists who are part of a sick organisation who as the once richest terrorist organisation had the most effective terrorist propaganda organisation ever.

So whatever you're views on ISIS, it really isn't right to impose your hatred of isis or hatred of terrorism (whether due to direct experience of terrorism or not) onto an abused and groomed 15 year old. Or the 19 year old after 4 years in isis controlled Syria or refugee camps.

So that's all debatable and based on your own opinion. What isn't is whether begum had a second nationality such that Javid could legally withdraw British citizenship. He has the legal right to do that if the person is a dual national. Bangladesh has categorically denied she has any legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship. She's never applied for it so would have to rectify that before she could become a Bangladeshi citizen. As a supporter of ISIS the Bangladeshi authorities responsible for deciding whether someone has the right for citizenship if their country they have said she would be denied citizenship if an application turned up.

So she had only British citizenship. That is a legal problem for Javid in that it takes away his prerogative to be able to remove citizenship as home secretary. He still went ahead with it. This gives a very good reason to test the legal situation. It is essential to our own interests that our political representatives act within the rule of law, both national and international law. There is probably no better cause for issuing legal aid than to hold politicians to account in a court of law whether the government / ministers wins out loses the case.

There is poem about first they came for one group of society and we did nothing, came for another group and another. But then they came for me and there was nobody left to fight for me. That is kind of what taking governments to court in ministerial decisions that have questionable legality is about. Checks and balances.

So you get an answer on a court of law on Javid's decision. If he wins the case (and all possible appeals) great at she's left out there without a nationality. If he loses the case she's stateless and is probably still a British citizen. In that case I wonder what would happen? I suspect she could not even get into Britain. Javid and others have the right to stop British citizens coming back into the country I believe or at least can refuse to assist them. Let's be honest here, someone without help could not get out of Syrian refugee camp and make it back to Britain. UK authorities would need to help. The alternative is ISIS or other extremist group could probably help make it happen. That would not be a good result I reckon. All my speculation since I do believe it safer to get her back here where we can try to affect change in her and if not control her opportunities to harm us.

mercalia
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby mercalia » 3 Jun 2019, 8:56am

Tangled Metal wrote:I read something about the family life of one of those three schoolgirls who left for Syria when 15 years old. Not sure if it's this woman or one of the others but the life she had started to go wrong long before she left.

Her parents split and she left with her sister and mum. Her mum started to become more orthodox on her Muslim beliefs, indeed verging on radical beliefs. She and her sister were both forced to become isolated from former school classmates and friends. They were forced to read religious texts and other very Conservative Muslim pamphlets.

It was a rather brutal control the mother had over her daughters. How teachers didn't do more about it I don't know. I believe social services had several opportunities to intervene. They failed. This girl was highly primed to find radical and extremist Muslim beliefs. If you're isolated from your own society in the UK because of your family situation and you're in a very Conservative Muslim household. You're so isolated you are highly likely to look for others online with your situation or giving understanding and support.

Basically the girl I read about was deserted by her school, deserted by social services and mistreated by her mum. Perfect target fit isis grooming.

Now as I said I don't recall if it was this woman who was in this article I read, I don't think it is but rather one of them who got killed out there in allied airstrike. However I would expect there's a similar story of isolation from her peers at school, conservative religion and grooming online by ISIS extremists who are part of a sick organisation who as the once richest terrorist organisation had the most effective terrorist propaganda organisation ever.

So whatever you're views on ISIS, it really isn't right to impose your hatred of isis or hatred of terrorism (whether due to direct experience of terrorism or not) onto an abused and groomed 15 year old. Or the 19 year old after 4 years in isis controlled Syria or refugee camps.

So that's all debatable and based on your own opinion. What isn't is whether begum had a second nationality such that Javid could legally withdraw British citizenship. He has the legal right to do that if the person is a dual national. Bangladesh has categorically denied she has any legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship. She's never applied for it so would have to rectify that before she could become a Bangladeshi citizen. As a supporter of ISIS the Bangladeshi authorities responsible for deciding whether someone has the right for citizenship if their country they have said she would be denied citizenship if an application turned up.

So she had only British citizenship. That is a legal problem for Javid in that it takes away his prerogative to be able to remove citizenship as home secretary. He still went ahead with it. This gives a very good reason to test the legal situation. It is essential to our own interests that our political representatives act within the rule of law, both national and international law. There is probably no better cause for issuing legal aid than to hold politicians to account in a court of law whether the government / ministers wins out loses the case.

There is poem about first they came for one group of society and we did nothing, came for another group and another. But then they came for me and there was nobody left to fight for me. That is kind of what taking governments to court in ministerial decisions that have questionable legality is about. Checks and balances.

So you get an answer on a court of law on Javid's decision. If he wins the case (and all possible appeals) great at she's left out there without a nationality. If he loses the case she's stateless and is probably still a British citizen. In that case I wonder what would happen? I suspect she could not even get into Britain. Javid and others have the right to stop British citizens coming back into the country I believe or at least can refuse to assist them. Let's be honest here, someone without help could not get out of Syrian refugee camp and make it back to Britain. UK authorities would need to help. The alternative is ISIS or other extremist group could probably help make it happen. That would not be a good result I reckon. All my speculation since I do believe it safer to get her back here where we can try to affect change in her and if not control her opportunities to harm us.


if Javid loses what is the consequence for him? nothing I expect. That isnt right.

reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jun 2019, 9:26am

TM
Thanks for that,I agree.
Get her back in the Uk,see if there's any charges to answer to and prosicute if ther is.If not make an attempt to 'deprogram' her and in the bargain see what fhe Uk has to gain from information garnered from her.
From a purely humane POV it's worth trying.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 3 Jun 2019, 9:39am

The kurdish intelligence forces have the wife of the former ISIS oil minister and close confidant of their leader (now deceased both of them and the wife due to be executed). This woman was right at the heart of the ISIS. She was an enslaver of many yazidis women and that American woman who they killed. Those women were given to senior isis members for their pleasure (the men's pleasure only). It is known that the wife of this prominent ISIS terrorist even put makeup on those women before the men raped them. She has provided information that helped kill the ISIS leader but it is known that if she's ever released she will go back to the ISIS terrorists.

Right now amal Clooney is trying to use her influence to get this woman to America to be tried there. For now the kurds are still planning to execute her a soon as they believe she has no more information to offer them.

Now this person I have no sympathy for. As much as I abhorr the death penalty I will still sleep after the kurds apply it to her according to their laws.

IMHO I suspect some on here do not see much difference between this female terrorist and the begum woman who was groomed as a child then found out things weren't as she'd been misled onto believing. In some ways opposite end of the spectrum. You'll never recover one but you might have a good chance with Begum woman.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jun 2019, 10:01am

Once again I agree,and whilst I totally disagree with the death penalty the woman you mention is subject to the law of another land not our law.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 3 Jun 2019, 1:04pm

Please stop agreeing with me, it'll ruin my right wing reputation! :wink: :D

reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jun 2019, 7:42pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Please stop agreeing with me, it'll ruin my right wing reputation! :wink: :D

Your reputation is shot anyway :wink: :D
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 3 Jun 2019, 11:46pm

Used to say I was the world's first tory communist in my youth. In my youth I liked the idea of a society where everyone is equal and is able to reach their full potential but realised we're too selfish so like everyone else I'll look after my own interests. Naivety of youth!

mercalia
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby mercalia » 7 Feb 2020, 12:17pm

it seems like Shamima Begum has had her appeal refused

Quite shocking. She was born in this country. What it means any one who has non uk ( parents) relatives maybe even grand parents means you can have your UK citizen ship removed if Sajid Javid dont like you? How far back can you go. hmm I have Danish ancestory, viz Vikings Should I get worried not to offend or get in that chancers way?


Rejecting the 20-year-old's case that she had been left stateless, the Commission concluded that Ms Begum was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51413040

I thought the laws were about stripping people who became UK citzens who were already some thing else ( eg like Meghan would do if she stayed around) seems to me to be an erroneus decision against what I assumed was the spirit of the law?

reohn2
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 7 Feb 2020, 1:09pm

IMO it's a disgrace,she's a UK citizen end of,and as such the UK should take responsibility for her.
There's a few proven drug dealers(read peddlers of misery)who've been apprehended in other countries,been extradited back to the UK to either put on trial or made to serve their sentences,how is it they can't be stripped of their UK citizenship?
This young woman has no outstanding convictions against her or any proven misdemeanors.
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merseymouth
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby merseymouth » 7 Feb 2020, 1:34pm

Hello again, Considering there is a real problem in the UK of people being radicalised leading to a hatred of the UK & its value such a verdict was always on the cards.
But what should we do? She chose her life path, causing upset to her family for sure. So does she wish to be able to walk back into the country to suffer no sanction for her actions?
Were she to return and find herself incarcerated as a terror risk would she yet again cry that it was unfair?
Damned if we do, damned if we don't! A curse on all religions which prefer to highlight differences rather than flag up human empathy. MM

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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Vorpal » 7 Feb 2020, 1:40pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello again, Considering there is a real problem in the UK of people being radicalised leading to a hatred of the UK & its value such a verdict was always on the cards.
But what should we do? She chose her life path, causing upset to her family for sure. So does she wish to be able to walk back into the country to suffer no sanction for her actions?
Were she to return and find herself incarcerated as a terror risk would she yet again cry that it was unfair?
Damned if we do, damned if we don't! A curse on all religions which prefer to highlight differences rather than flag up human empathy. MM

Would you say she chose here life, if she were the victim of child grooming for sexual abuse in the UK, instead of by ISIS? Because she got on an airplane to join a terrorist organisation instead of a sex ring, she is somehow less of a victim?
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