Jihadi Brides and their Children.

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Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jul 2020, 5:37pm

Anyone got any figures for the number of jihadis of any gender who have returned to UK? AIUI the government actually let quite a few back, mostly men and a few women. This woman was made a scapegoat of by the way the media brought her case to light and thus made the government much later on when she was found in a refugee camp feel the need to act tough for their core, and possibly racist, base.

I seriously want her to come back to her country, the UK, and face up to whatever crimes she has committed that the UK legal system can act on. That won't happen unless she wins her case. IMHO I cannot see how she cannot win it but I'm only considering common sense not the law which we all know is a particular type of equine that's half horse/half donkey!?

My common sense thinking on that is the idea you can't leave a person stateless. Having the right to claim a second nationality through the nationality of a parent isn't having that nationality if for no other reason than any state can turn down citizenship applications. Bangladesh has effectivel said they would do so. That means there is no prospect of this woman having any other citizenship. I really cannot see how common sense didn't stop the government making her stateless. I hope she wins the case and I'm a big, embarrassing way for the government too!!

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 5:47pm

TM
We do agree at times :D
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I cycle therefore I am.

Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Jul 2020, 5:54pm

ANTONISH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:You clearly have a remarkable insight into her psyche and beliefs. Would you be able to share the source(s) with others so they too can benefit from them?


Only from her actions as attested by various witnesses and what she has said in interviews. Of course you can believe that she is contrite and will never be a future threat.
wait and see

Witnesses? I'll make my judgements on the basis of evidence rather than media reports, thanks.

merseymouth
Posts: 1820
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby merseymouth » 19 Jul 2020, 6:04pm

Well, we know that one of the Bulger duo has refused to mend his ways, to take advantage of the chance that his anonymity & new life back story had given him, so read that as a 50% failure/success rate.
Anyone know if Mary Bell has led a reformed fruitful life since her sentence? But as she hasn't had to work off her crime in a knowing society we may never know?
I still feel a sense of responsibility for my daughter, even though she is nearing 40 and married, but that is my worry not yours! MM

Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Jul 2020, 6:39pm

If there's a point you're making v-a-v the individual and her return to contest the removal of her statehood I'm not sure I see what it is, I'm afraid.

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Navara
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Joined: 29 Jun 2020, 11:38pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Navara » 19 Jul 2020, 7:23pm

I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to let her back in the UK.She went,of her own free will,to join a Terrorist organisation and has shown absolutely no remorse for anyone or anything but herself.De-radicalisation doesn't work.She is a threat now and always will be.Why should the British taxpayer foot the bill for her in any way shape or form?
The answer is simple we shouldn't.
It shouldn't stop with her.Anyone who leaves the UK to join a Terrorist group should never be allowed back.Allowing any radical/Jihadist/ISIS member back sends the wrong message.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 8:37pm

Navara wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to let her back in the UK.

Other people do for reasons given up thread.

She went,of her own free will,to join a Terrorist organisation

She was 15years old and still a minor.

and has shown absolutely no remorse for anyone or anything but herself

Do you have sound evidence for this outside media reports?

De-radicalisation doesn't work

Do you have evidence of this?

She is a threat now and always will be

Do you have any evidence of this?

Why should the British taxpayer foot the bill for her in any way shape or form?

Because as a UK citizen she is the UK's responsibility.

The answer is simple we shouldn't

Not that simple.

It shouldn't stop with her.Anyone who leaves the UK to join a Terrorist group should never be allowed back.Allowing any radical/Jihadist/ISIS member back sends the wrong message.

Such actions need proving in UK law first.

Much as it may upset some but the UK operates a system where anyone charged with a criminal offence is inoccent until proven guilty.
Shamima Begum so far hasn't been found guilty of any offence under UK law,until such time that she is,she's inoccent.
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Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Jul 2020, 9:09pm

Here's a short article by someone who has met her twice:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... EBURY.html

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jul 2020, 9:20pm

reohn2 wrote:TM
We do agree at times :D

Shhhh! My application to join the Tory party is in!! We need infiltrators from the centre right to get them back where they should be. We'll not get rid of Boris without more younger people eligible to vote for the next leader. Do you really want Give after Boris, or worse!!! :lol: :wink:

reohn2
Posts: 39659
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 10:03pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:TM
We do agree at times :D

Shhhh! My application to join the Tory party is in!! We need infiltrators from the centre right to get them back where they should be. We'll not get rid of Boris without more younger people eligible to vote for the next leader. Do you really want Give after Boris, or worse!!! :lol: :wink:

You can always apply for membership of the Labour Party :wink:
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Navara
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Navara » 20 Jul 2020, 11:39am

reohn2 wrote:
Navara wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to let her back in the UK.

Other people do for reasons given up thread.Yes and that's their POV this is mine

She went,of her own free will,to join a Terrorist organisation

She was 15years old and still a minor.My dad/grandad had been working a year at 15.Modern 15 year olds are only minors in (the out of date)legal sense.She knew what she was doing

and has shown absolutely no remorse for anyone or anything but herself

Do you have sound evidence for this outside media reports?Do you have evidence of her showing remorse?

De-radicalisation doesn't work

Do you have evidence of this?If you care to look there have been several recent attacks where the perpetrator had previously been in prison and on the de-radcalisation program.The evidence is there if you want to view it

She is a threat now and always will be

Do you have any evidence of this?See last comment

Why should the British taxpayer foot the bill for her in any way shape or form?

Because as a UK citizen she is the UK's responsibility.She is no longer a UK citizen

The answer is simple we shouldn't

Not that simple.Yes it is.Some Liberals want to over complicate an uncomplicated thing.

It shouldn't stop with her.Anyone who leaves the UK to join a Terrorist group should never be allowed back.Allowing any radical/Jihadist/ISIS member back sends the wrong message.

Such actions need proving in UK law first.Just how much proof do you need?

Much as it may upset some but the UK operates a system where anyone charged with a criminal offence is inoccent until proven guilty.
Shamima Begum so far hasn't been found guilty of any offence under UK law,until such time that she is,she's inoccent.

*Red text is my edit*
Your last point just highlights why we are where we are.She's in Syria.She travelled there of her own free will.She's had and lost 2 or 3 children to a Jihadist.The evidence of guilt is there.Just because you don't want to see it does not mean it doesn't exist.
Let her rot where she is.Better that than having to say I told you so.

merseymouth
Posts: 1820
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby merseymouth » 20 Jul 2020, 1:27pm

Hi all, Everyone must acknowledge that she was legally a minor when she chose to go against all of the legal advise over offering support for an illegal organization, a regime that itself ignored all legal process! She declared that she was old enough to take her own route in life, maybe she was right? After all I actually started work at 15, unlike the feather bedded current generation. My own father started work at 14, his father started at 12!
So maybe she was old enough to decide?
But maybe there is one area over which our society was at fault, making her flight to Syria possible. That issue must be her passport!
At 15 under current law she was to have her own passport, back in my day it would be a child was named on a parents document, so a minor could not travel out of the UK without that adult being present. The law was changed, but surely that passport belonging to the identity of the minor should be under the control of that adult?
So why did her parents leave her access to that document? Further on a national fault level how could a minor leave the country without being required to prove that she had parental permission to travel???So our current laws seem to have made it possible for her to travel, but chiefly the blame should lie at the door of her parents, shame on them!
When our daughter travelled on a school trip we had to provide written permission, provable permission, not the likes of "Jimmy can't go to skool today"! They gave HMG the problem, she knew best! MM

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Jul 2020, 2:30pm

Navara wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Navara wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to let her back in the UK.

Other people do for reasons given up thread.Yes and that's their POV this is mine

She went,of her own free will,to join a Terrorist organisation

She was 15years old and still a minor.My dad/grandad had been working a year at 15.Modern 15 year olds are only minors in (the out of date)legal sense.She knew what she was doing

and has shown absolutely no remorse for anyone or anything but herself

Do you have sound evidence for this outside media reports?Do you have evidence of her showing remorse?

De-radicalisation doesn't work

Do you have evidence of this?If you care to look there have been several recent attacks where the perpetrator had previously been in prison and on the de-radcalisation program.The evidence is there if you want to view it

She is a threat now and always will be

Do you have any evidence of this?See last comment

Why should the British taxpayer foot the bill for her in any way shape or form?

Because as a UK citizen she is the UK's responsibility.She is no longer a UK citizen

The answer is simple we shouldn't

Not that simple.Yes it is.Some Liberals want to over complicate an uncomplicated thing.

It shouldn't stop with her.Anyone who leaves the UK to join a Terrorist group should never be allowed back.Allowing any radical/Jihadist/ISIS member back sends the wrong message.

Such actions need proving in UK law first.Just how much proof do you need?

Much as it may upset some but the UK operates a system where anyone charged with a criminal offence is inoccent until proven guilty.
Shamima Begum so far hasn't been found guilty of any offence under UK law,until such time that she is,she's inoccent.

*Red text is my edit*
Your last point just highlights why we are where we are.She's in Syria.She travelled there of her own free will.She's had and lost 2 or 3 children to a Jihadist.The evidence of guilt is there.Just because you don't want to see it does not mean it doesn't exist.
Let her rot where she is.Better that than having to say I told you so.


In a civilised society, governed by the rule of law, guilt is determined by a court after evidence is presented. It is nothing to with whether individual members of the public see it or not. Having children with someone however distasteful the individual is not actually a crime. Especially if you were a child at the time.
John

mikeymo
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby mikeymo » 20 Jul 2020, 3:40pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Having children with someone however distasteful the individual is not actually a crime.


Exactly, well put.

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Navara
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Re: Jihadi Brides and their Children.

Postby Navara » 20 Jul 2020, 3:46pm

Oldjohnw wrote:In a civilised society, governed by the rule of law, guilt is determined by a court after evidence is presented. It is nothing to with whether individual members of the public see it or not. Having children with someone however distasteful the individual is not actually a crime. Especially if you were a child at the time.

She was 19 when she lost her last child.
She stopped being a child herself when she made the decision to join ISIS.She isn't only guilty of having a child with a distasteful individual she is guilty of being a distasteful individual.She ceased to be civilised when she joined an uncivilised terrorist cell.
There is no point in trying to butter up what you think she is or was.She is what she is.A terrorist.
It would be interesting to see just how many people of Britain actually agree with her returning.I don't think it will be a very high percentage.
Maybe the Govt should poll everyone then let the ones who want her back pay the multi-millions it will cost keeping her safe for the next 50+ years?
We have enough problems here with right wing groups without giving them the satisfaction of saying they were right about us being a soft touch.