The gang of how many?

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reohn2
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The gang of how many?

Postby reohn2 » 20 Feb 2019, 11:27am

Will it the current crop of Labour and now Tory MP's leaving their respective parties survive as a movement?
Will more join them?
Is it a fresh start for UK politics?
Would they be better off joining the LibDems?
Is this what's needed in UK politics?

It's certainly the biggest upset the big two parties have faced for some time,will they succeed?
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mjr
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby mjr » 20 Feb 2019, 11:53am

I don't know but the Guardian was speculating that there's currently four factions in parliament: Tory whip followers, Labour whip followers, Europhobes and Europhiles. This could be a potential start of a centrist European Democratic Party as seen in some other countries, or possibly a MoDem or Podemos one - interesting times.

Nigel Garage reckons it's the start of realignment so it's probably doomed to fail because he's usually wrong!
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Cugel
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Cugel » 20 Feb 2019, 11:54am

Those jumping from their various holed or sinking political ships are perhaps merely posturing. They jump from something still (just) afloat into the churning stormy sea whipped up by the deep depressions of austerity and Bexit combined. "See me making a moral choice", they cry...

What could they achieve if they survive? They would merely construct a ship full of the same flaws as those they just abandoned; and equally likely to sink in the storm. It's all they know.

I have no idea what British politics requires in these strange days. Well, other than those old-fashioned virtues of disinterest, a proper patriotism (as opposed to the football hooligan variety) and a large ability to compromise, dicker, bargain and otherwise be ''politic". After all, politics is at it's best when it's the framework and conventions for arranging compromise and tolerance between multiple groups with widely different interests, beliefs, desires and all the other human angsts. Today's politics seems nothing other than a theatre of the absurd, in which various clowns perform their pratfalls, postures and other pretenses, with no thought at all for the reality outside of the circus tent.

But perhaps the question is moot anyway? I've come to believe that the whole edifice of government (or any other human control scheme) is a delusion. We seem to make choices and to pull control levers but in fact we are merely part of an enormous memetic churn as the evolution of various ideas across the network of big human brains hosting them accelerates into an unknown and unkowable future. Any pull of a control lever by a human has a hundred unforeseen consequences which often obliterate or prevent the original intention of pulling the lever.

In short, history is returning to normal human interactions and we're all doomed. :-)

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PH
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby PH » 20 Feb 2019, 12:24pm

The Tory members jumping to join the Labour ones tells me all I need to know about the values of both. They were all elected on party manifestos, if they no longer believe in them they should stand for election on what they do believe.

mercalia
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby mercalia » 20 Feb 2019, 12:29pm

maybe the ERG should leave the tory party and join them, see the break away leave the breakway :lol:

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Spinners
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Spinners » 20 Feb 2019, 12:36pm

All 8 (at time of writing!) should have the guts to stand for re-election to validate their status as a member of parliament for their constituency. At an election, rightly or wrongly, some people do vote for their preferred party and not the dazzling personality of the subsequently elected MP.

Of the 8, I have the least sympathy for Chuka Umunna because he had the very real chance of becoming the leader of the Labour party following Millibland's resignation and make changes from within. It was then that he needed to show the courage of his convictions and not now.
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mjr
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby mjr » 20 Feb 2019, 12:53pm

Spinners wrote:All 8 (at time of writing!) should have the guts to stand for re-election to validate their status as a member of parliament for their constituency. At an election, rightly or wrongly, some people do vote for their preferred party and not the dazzling personality of the subsequently elected MP.

Rightly or wrongly, there's no requirement in our current system to do so and it seems entirely consistent with their reasons for breaking away that they would prefer to deal with issues of the day that they feel their former parties are failing to address correctly, instead of wasting time fighting unnecessary elections - we had one unnecessary timewasting election recently and it feels like another may be along shortly.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Feb 2019, 12:58pm

Eleven defections is actually a massive event.

I'm not sure if any MP actually sticks to the party manifesto. Or any Governmnt for that matter. So you could say that the proposed policies were just to get a foot in the door: beyond election night they have little value.

As far as the Tory MPs go, I doubt that they campaigned - or were elected - on the grounds that their party would be jointly run by the ERG and the DUP.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 20 Feb 2019, 1:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Feb 2019, 1:11pm

There's a cynical part of me thinking that those on here calling for by-election for these 8 are among those Corbyn supporters who are feeling most aggrieved at their traitorousness. I doubt they have called for that in the one off cases of defections and whip resignations that happens probably between every GE time.

It is quite possibly the case that they only squeal about calling a by election because it's one of their MPs that's left and they've now lost those votes in parliament.

I think I'm calling out the hypocrites if that's allowed on here.

pwa
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby pwa » 20 Feb 2019, 1:12pm

On a purely practical point, it would be bizarre in the extreme to start on a string of by-election campaigns with the Brexit conclusion potentially just up the road. A time, perhaps, for everyone to stay in their seats for the moment at least.

You can put money on it that Vince is on the phone right now suggesting an alliance or merger.

reohn2
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby reohn2 » 20 Feb 2019, 1:15pm

Like it or not the current eleven MP's have as Cugel says thrown themselves into the raging political sea in leaving their relevant parties,and is now upto them to build a suitable boat that can sail,in the current two party system it won't be easy if past attempts are anything to go by.

In answer to PH's point about them calling by elections in their respective constituences,they have no legal responsibilities to do that,and they're after all's said and done politicians,so are unlikely to cut of their own noses to spite their faces.

The current political system is totally in tatters and has been for some time,politics and politicians in the UK are currently regarded by the electorate as no more than pond life.
Brexit IMO has shown just low the UK political system has sunk,the sickness continues.
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Mick F
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Mick F » 20 Feb 2019, 1:19pm

Did I hear that there are more of these new independent MPs than there are LibDem MPs?
If so, and they joined the LibDems, they would have a substantial say in the house.

Put Brexit on hold and have a general election asap.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Feb 2019, 1:26pm

8 labour and how many tory? Isn't it 5 LibDems? Tories won't stick with LibDems so that's a party if 13 LibDemIndependants. Isn't that DUP numbers?

Oh! What fun we'd have with a tory libdem independent group coalition. Are there anymore electoral reforms and tuition fee increases to dump on the minor coalition members? Brexit! Let's dump it on them. LibDems can't be that stupid and want to join with anyone again until they become more important in Westminster. Of course who is their leader again? Not heard much from them for awhile.

It's funny that once disaffected Labour and tories often moved to LibDems. Since coalition disaffected tories moved to UKIP. Does anyone leave a major party to n join the LibDems anymore? Aren't they a busted flush?

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bovlomov
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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby bovlomov » 20 Feb 2019, 1:56pm

PH wrote:The Tory members jumping to join the Labour ones tells me all I need to know about the values of both. They were all elected on party manifestos, if they no longer believe in them they should stand for election on what they do believe.

Ken Clark answered that a couple of weeks ago. To paraphrase: the manifesto was a load of rubbish that was produced by some backroom spads a couple of weeks before the election. He was never sent a copy. The government junked large parts of it within days.

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Re: The gang of how many?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Feb 2019, 2:05pm

I listened to the statements of the 3.
All very eloquent and rather refreshingly honest I thought.
Above all, the extent and extremeness of the extreme right that now exists in the Tories really came over, I thought.