Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by pwa »

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I have been wondering how long that chain of letters can get before it breaks. I know it is an effort at inclusivity, which is great, but it is getting unwieldy. The time is ripe for a short phrase or single word that encapsulates folk who are "other".

I've always been slightly narked by peoples desire to continually subdivide things to atomic level
(Mind you it started with music.)

As a straight, white bloke who prefers bottoms to breasts what I want to know is; what letter can I have?
(Are there any free?)

I doubt that most people included in the LGBT... are consulted about the constant extending of that string of letters. And I can't believe that it won't soon occur to folk in those categories to come up with a short umbrella term.
Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Carlton green »

Tangled Metal wrote:Bingo! You've got it. If everyone accepted a woman looking like a man then transitioning pre puberty or at all might not be necessary. Transitioning might not be needed or it might be wanted. Doesn't matter which. I just think there's a reason age limits what younger people can legally do across many areas. You can't vote, drink alcohol, make your own medical decisions, drive a car, etc.


My thoughts on the topic have changed a little over the years, such discussions as these (well managed ones) help explore topics in an educated and caring way. As it happens I know someone with a fairly Male build who was born female, they made the transition last year and seem happier for it if concerned what others might think. Years ago I stopped associating Male or Female with that person and just accepted them for the capable and good soul that they were. She (at that time) on the other hand struggled a bit to be the dainty lady that society expects (difficult with shoulders like a Rugby player).

IMHO if we just accepted folk for who they were, and didn’t force folk to fit into social stereotypes, then we’d all be a lot happier and much of this gender reassignment wouldn’t be necessary. In a civilised society there are relatively things were it actually matters whether one is Male, Female or somewhere in-between and we should see the person (character) in front of us way before we identify their sexuality or lack of. Of course that’s not an easy thing to do, we’re just not programmed that way and the social change required shouldn’t be underestimated or undertaken without care.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Vorpal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:
kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I have been wondering how long that chain of letters can get before it breaks. I know it is an effort at inclusivity, which is great, but it is getting unwieldy. The time is ripe for a short phrase or single word that encapsulates folk who are "other".

I've always been slightly narked by peoples desire to continually subdivide things to atomic level
(Mind you it started with music.)

As a straight, white bloke who prefers bottoms to breasts what I want to know is; what letter can I have?
(Are there any free?)

I doubt that most people included in the LGBT... are consulted about the constant extending of that string of letters. And I can't believe that it won't soon occur to folk in those categories to come up with a short umbrella term.

Most of the folks I know from that community use LGBTQ, with 'queer' being gender non-conforming. I have seen some Asexual folks object on social media to being lumped in with 'queer', or offended by the term, but others who seem happy with it as inclusive.

If it seems important, I usually just ask what the people I am interacting with prefer.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
kwackers
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Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by kwackers »

Vorpal wrote:If it seems important, I usually just ask what the people I am interacting with prefer.

If.

Don't think I've ever been in a position where it mattered so I've never needed to ask.
I'm more concerned that this preoccupation with niches and trying to find one to slot in isn't counterproductive.
fullupandslowingdown
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by fullupandslowingdown »

..... And I can't believe that it won't soon occur to folk in those categories to come up with a short umbrella term.


I've got one.
.
.
Human
mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by mercalia »

This is all getting too weird for me.

“Mother” is a gendered term and so should not be used to describe a transgender man who gave birth in 2018 after transitioning from female to male, the court of appeal has been told.

Freddy McConnell, a journalist who writes for the Guardian, is appealing against a high court ruling that he could not be named as the father or parent on his child’s birth certificate.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/04/transgender-man-appeals-decision-not-to-be-named-father

so he wants to be a man who has babies :? :shock: :roll:

I wonder what being a man is in his eyes. I think its going Alice in Wonderland. The crazies are in control of the assylum
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Carlton green »

mercalia wrote:This is all getting too weird for me.

“Mother” is a gendered term and so should not be used to describe a transgender man who gave birth in 2018 after transitioning from female to male, the court of appeal has been told.

Freddy McConnell, a journalist who writes for the Guardian, is appealing against a high court ruling that he could not be named as the father or parent on his child’s birth certificate.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/04/transgender-man-appeals-decision-not-to-be-named-father

so he wants to be a man who has babies :? :shock: :roll:

I wonder what being a man is in his eyes. I think its going Alice in Wonderland. The crazies are in control of the assylum


I too find that the World is like that sometimes, common sense died decades ago and very often the lunatics do seem to have the keys to the asylum. A bike ride helps and so does just closing my front door on the world and letting them get in with it - mostly things sort themselves out in some form of workable fashion.

In the case of the transgender parent perhaps ‘he’ feels that for the future it might be most practical for ‘his’ Male appearance to be recognised on the Birth certificate, so a matter of building in pragmatism and flexibility for the future.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by mercalia »

Carlton green wrote:
mercalia wrote:This is all getting too weird for me.

“Mother” is a gendered term and so should not be used to describe a transgender man who gave birth in 2018 after transitioning from female to male, the court of appeal has been told.

Freddy McConnell, a journalist who writes for the Guardian, is appealing against a high court ruling that he could not be named as the father or parent on his child’s birth certificate.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/04/transgender-man-appeals-decision-not-to-be-named-father

so he wants to be a man who has babies :? :shock: :roll:

I wonder what being a man is in his eyes. I think its going Alice in Wonderland. The crazies are in control of the assylum


I too find that the World is like that sometimes, common sense died decades ago and very often the lunatics do seem to have the keys to the asylum. A bike ride helps and so does just closing my front door on the world and letting them get in with it - mostly things sort themselves out in some form of workable fashion.

In the case of the transgender parent perhaps ‘he’ feels that for the future it might be most practical for ‘his’ Male appearance to be recognised on the Birth certificate, so a matter of building in pragmatism and flexibility for the future.


well seems to me "he" wants to deceive people that in future "he" doesnt have to indicate "he" gave birth to the kid, so people will just assume "he" is just the kids dad
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Carlton green »

mercalia wrote:
Carlton green wrote:
mercalia wrote:This is all getting too weird for me.

“Mother” is a gendered term and so should not be used to describe a transgender man who gave birth in 2018 after transitioning from female to male, the court of appeal has been told.

Freddy McConnell, a journalist who writes for the Guardian, is appealing against a high court ruling that he could not be named as the father or parent on his child’s birth certificate.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/04/transgender-man-appeals-decision-not-to-be-named-father

so he wants to be a man who has babies :? :shock: :roll:

I wonder what being a man is in his eyes. I think its going Alice in Wonderland. The crazies are in control of the assylum


I too find that the World is like that sometimes, common sense died decades ago and very often the lunatics do seem to have the keys to the asylum. A bike ride helps and so does just closing my front door on the world and letting them get in with it - mostly things sort themselves out in some form of workable fashion.

In the case of the transgender parent perhaps ‘he’ feels that for the future it might be most practical for ‘his’ Male appearance to be recognised on the Birth certificate, so a matter of building in pragmatism and flexibility for the future.


well seems to me "he" wants to deceive people that in future "he" doesnt have to indicate "he" gave birth to the kid, so people will just assume "he" is just the kids dad


Though I would agree that ‘on the face of it’ a deception is involved I don’t think that I would use the word ‘deceive’, to my way of thinking that’s a bit harsh. Someone in transition has enough problems already and to inflict further ones, and ones on the child of such a person, really isn’t a nice thing to do, and particularly so if it is avoidable. To my mind the kindest thing to do, and one that could be a very pragmatic solution, is to go with following the parents wishes. Personally I don’t have any issues with people assuming that he is the kids Dad. To me it’s now just a case of live and let live, but there was a time when I’d have struggled with this situation. I guess that discussion and information help us to reevaluate many things and to question the reference points and principles by which we run our life ... always good to question and to avoid automatic prejudice.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Tangled Metal »

Who was that transgender on that jungle reality tv competition thingy? She said her daughter's still call her dad. He said he didn't mind that.
mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by mercalia »

a strange thing. if you have some kind of non normal condition that is a threat to others you have a problem that needs treatment, drugs and electro shock, and they are analysed and things found wrong in their upbringing, lack of love etc and there is a fancy forboding name for it, but if not, then thats just part of being normal and ok and the law should reflect that variety. Equal rights for psychopaths?
mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by mercalia »

Remember Father Ted? - The silencing of Graham Linehan

Over the weekend, Linehan was booted off Twitter. His apparent crime? To tweet the words: 'men aren’t women tho'. His post, in response to a message from the Women’s Institute wishing their transgender members a happy Pride, was too much for Twitter. Now Linehan has been permanently suspended, it would seem, for saying among other things words that the majority of people would surely agree with.


As Professor Kathleen Stock commented, 'Graham Linehan shouldn't have been banned from Twitter. He doesn't put things sensitively, he's p***** people off, but he's also done his best to stick up for women against encroaching trans activism. For which he has paid disproportionately. Cowardly blue ticks walk on by.'


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-graham-linehan-fell-foul-of-the-transgender-mob?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020200629%20%20House%20%20SM+CID_1e539359476280034c3ad27e837d7cc7
markjohnobrien
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by markjohnobrien »

From Vorpal - “Children are not normally transitioned. They are just put on puberty blockers, the effects of which can be reversed simply by stopping the medication. The same blockers are used for all sorts other medical treatments, and there is no danger in them whatsoever”.


Not correct.

The NHS have changed their guidelines to stress the possible long term damage and effects: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spec ... eality/amp

This is experimenting on a generation of young children without any long term study of the dangers. One is that once children have been on puberty blockers for 12 months they (virtually 100% of the cohort) are given cross sex hormone drugs that are irreversible and can damage fertility.

The possible psychological dangers of puberty blockers are also now emphasised along with damage to bones, etc, so a blase “...there is no danger in them whatsoever” is not true and is a willingness to allow risky experimentation on children.

If smacking is seen as abuse, this is potentially far worse.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by mercalia »

I dont know if J K Rowling's comments on these matters has been mentioned here?

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

seems like she is a TERF according to the transgender community ( read her article to explain the transgender community term for her)

She seems to talk a great deal of sense but has suffered for it.

Many things I didnt know -

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria.

A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.

well worth the read.
Vorpal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Post by Vorpal »

For every good piece of information, she seems to include 2 bits of misinformation.

And when the trans community; even gender therapists (I've seen some posting on twitter about it) try to explain to her, which bits are incorrect or misinformed, she doubles down.

My biggest problem with her, was all this started because she mocked a bulletin from an international health organisation that said 'people who menstruate', which I think is a perfectly good inclusive phrase to use to indicate women, girls, gender nonconforming, queer and trans folk who menstruate, without saying all of that, or maybe leaving someone out who will feel excluded (asexual? intersexual?). Also, although it is very rare, there are also men (non trans) who menstruate.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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