Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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merseymouth
Posts: 1931
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby merseymouth » 19 Feb 2020, 10:00am

Morning all, I think my worry over any Supreme Court Judgement must be that they will come up with a fudge that says "Oranges can be Apples"!
Difference is natural, but as in most things the distortion of the language to fit a need is in itself a distortion.
Maybe we missed a trick with our laws, maybe we should abandon any gender division in all walks of life?
After all Fallon Sherrock throws her arrows from the same oche as the men! She has to play the same number of games to win. Try that in Tennis?
Sometimes to make things fun for all we do have to accept that natural gender makes the playing field unequal, either we do away with such classifications, or we have to accept that it ain't a fair contest! MM
Beaten by many women on a level basis, took it on the chin.
Loved running behind Anne Packer, great running action, too quick for me, even when she was a Vet!

pwa
Posts: 12707
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 19 Feb 2020, 10:44am

merseymouth wrote:Morning all, I think my worry over any Supreme Court Judgement must be that they will come up with a fudge that says "Oranges can be Apples"!
Difference is natural, but as in most things the distortion of the language to fit a need is in itself a distortion.
Maybe we missed a trick with our laws, maybe we should abandon any gender division in all walks of life?
After all Fallon Sherrock throws her arrows from the same oche as the men! She has to play the same number of games to win. Try that in Tennis?
Sometimes to make things fun for all we do have to accept that natural gender makes the playing field unequal, either we do away with such classifications, or we have to accept that it ain't a fair contest! MM
Beaten by many women on a level basis, took it on the chin.
Loved running behind Anne Packer, great running action, too quick for me, even when she was a Vet!

If you removed gender from sport you would never see a woman who was born female lift a singles trophy at Wimbledon again. Professional women's football would be killed off just as it is starting to take off. There would be no more professional female cycling. The Olympics would take half as long (yipee!) because it wouldn't be worth women turning up for athletic events. I don't think any of that is practical or desirable.

merseymouth
Posts: 1931
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby merseymouth » 19 Feb 2020, 11:30am

Hi PWA, I agree entirely! No complaints from me on that score.
But it is the the folk who can't accept that sometimes rules mean that freedom to try to square the circle isn't going to work. Blly Jen King might have beaten an ageing has been tennis player, but even in her prime Stan Smith o John Newcombe would have battered her!
Martina was good, but Ivan Lendl would have given he no chance.
I prefer the female game, apart from the grunters, not totally serve dominated. But the mixed double game is the best entertainment in tennis.
Vive La Difference. MM

mercalia
Posts: 14005
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 1 Mar 2020, 11:58am

you cant win!

so a person is suing a hospital for fixing her. she says they should have resisted more. she has now changed her mind :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020

toontra
Posts: 716
Joined: 21 Dec 2007, 11:01am
Location: London

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby toontra » 1 Mar 2020, 12:38pm

mercalia wrote:you cant win!

so a person is suing a hospital for fixing her. she says they should have resisted more. she has now changed her mind :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020


Presumably her parents had to give consent? Perhaps she should sue them rather than extort money from the NHS.

wirral_cyclist
Posts: 780
Joined: 17 May 2010, 9:25pm
Location: Wirral Merseyside

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby wirral_cyclist » 1 Mar 2020, 9:44pm

toontra wrote:
mercalia wrote:you cant win!

so a person is suing a hospital for fixing her. she says they should have resisted more. she has now changed her mind :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020


Presumably her parents had to give consent? Perhaps she should sue them rather than extort money from the NHS.


But it's/theywhatever parents are skint and as every fool presumes the NHS have bottomless pockets

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 1581
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 1 Mar 2020, 10:02pm

Image

Laurel Hubbard. That’s not a man is it?

Tangled Metal
Posts: 7006
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 1 Mar 2020, 11:18pm

Dunno. Can anyone tell from a not very clear photograph? I used to know a women who weightlifting would probably have more weights on the bar than most men. Who had a physique that most men lifting free weights in your local gym would use steroids to get. Whose chin makes desperate Dan look effeminate if he actually had a proper shave of course.

In case you doubt she's female, well there's a few good indicators. One she had a body that looked male in many ways but she was very feminine in attitude and even motion. A few other reasons, but a biggee is the way she made the GB ladies training squad for a particular sport before trans was something that was accepted.

I only mentioned her because she's an example of why you cannot use pure looks as a reliable way to determine someone's biological sex.

Carlton green
Posts: 827
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 1 Mar 2020, 11:42pm

I note a recent article on the BBC’s website about a teenage girl winning a State Wrestling contest in which she beat the boys. When you look further the contest had weight categories and she had talent. Good luck to her I say and note that she fought within a weight range and won on skill. I doubt that it was a completely fair contest for her (the boys were likely a bit stronger) but the managed difference was outweighed by her talent and training - very well done to her.

Now IMHO there’s no solution to the trans issue that’s fair to all but asking that those trans people competing against born as female contestants do so on an equal footing or not to compete at all isn’t unreasonable. If you’re trans and not of a similar build to the other contestants then you simply shouldn’t be allowed to compete because it’s not fair competition (which is what sport should aim to be); in an effort to try to get fair competition a line has to be drawn somewhere even if that somewhere isn’t ideal for particular people.

Let’s be clear that it’s not OK to abuse trans people but let’s also be clear that it’s not OK for them to abuse others too. I have sympathy for their pain and their situation but they are not valid reasons for making the lives of other people (who are just getting on with their own lives) any more difficult. Learn to live and let live, and accept that you shouldn’t take unfair advantage and can’t have everything you want.

francovendee
Posts: 1524
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby francovendee » 2 Mar 2020, 8:31am

mercalia wrote:you cant win!

so a person is suing a hospital for fixing her. she says they should have resisted more. she has now changed her mind :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020

And I'd expect if that person wasn't given what they wanted they'd be people saying the the NHS had failed them in not allowing them to choose.
As you say, you just can't win!

Tangled Metal
Posts: 7006
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 8:48am

Actually there was a director of a juvenile gender reassignment centre in the UK who resigned a few years ago iirc. Apparently the only one that specialised in gender issues with kids.

The reason for his resignation was how the board totally ignored an independent care quality audit that basically something like there was a culture to rush into puberty stopping treatment and reassignment over proper assessment which takes time.

I'm sure it's a googlable story that made the papers in the last 2 or so years. If anyone wanted to look for it. But it seems relevant to consider that this is a kid who went through a process led and controlled by adults. Can you be sure there wasn't a degree of hand holding and leading one way? I believe that was your gist of the report ignored by the board of the clinic.

I believe there was a figure for the number of child gender reassignment cases where the child regretted the decision as an adult and even requested a reassignment back to their birth gender. Iirc it was the majority of child reassignment cases had this adult regret. If so it could be that there's a systemic problem with this area. In that case perhaps the person in this article has a very valid case. Easy to judge people but are you certain you have your facts for that judgement?

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 1581
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 2 Mar 2020, 9:05am

Tangled Metal wrote:.

I only mentioned her because she's an example of why you cannot use pure looks as a reliable way to determine someone's biological sex.


If an actual biological woman wins a women’s weightlifting event though, that’s fair. This biological man did though, yet again, what a load of balls ( quite literally).

Tangled Metal
Posts: 7006
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 10:22am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:.

I only mentioned her because she's an example of why you cannot use pure looks as a reliable way to determine someone's biological sex.


If an actual biological woman wins a women’s weightlifting event though, that’s fair. This biological man did though, yet again, what a load of balls ( quite literally).

My comments were on response to a post where a photograph of a sportsperson was in action without any other information except comments implying the person was a man. It's certainly unfair to decide on gender purely by looking at a poor quality photograph of someone in a sport that's likely to have biological women with a higher level of looks expected in men.

Perhaps I should have simply posted that ithout more information it's impossible to determine the subject's gender from just a photograph. I was probably long winded in my reply.

Do you have any further links or information on this case? It's certainly better to add details / links to cases raised.

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Pastychomper
Posts: 382
Joined: 14 Nov 2017, 11:14am
Location: Caithness

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Pastychomper » 2 Mar 2020, 11:02am

Tangled Metal wrote:Actually there was a director of a juvenile gender reassignment centre in the UK who resigned a few years ago iirc. Apparently the only one that specialised in gender issues with kids.

The reason for his resignation was how the board totally ignored an independent care quality audit that basically something like there was a culture to rush into puberty stopping treatment and reassignment over proper assessment which takes time.

I'm sure it's a googlable story that made the papers in the last 2 or so years. If anyone wanted to look for it. But it seems relevant to consider that this is a kid who went through a process led and controlled by adults. Can you be sure there wasn't a degree of hand holding and leading one way? I believe that was your gist of the report ignored by the board of the clinic.

I believe there was a figure for the number of child gender reassignment cases where the child regretted the decision as an adult and even requested a reassignment back to their birth gender. Iirc it was the majority of child reassignment cases had this adult regret. If so it could be that there's a systemic problem with this area. In that case perhaps the person in this article has a very valid case. Easy to judge people but are you certain you have your facts for that judgement?

The level of "hand-holding and leading" has been in the news recently in Scotland, as the Scottish government seems to be keen on making transitioning easier and relying more on self-identification, while lowering the minimum age for transitioning. I gather there's a consultation on, allegedly with the hope of getting the law changed quickly before it can become an election issue.

For the moment I'm still willing to believe that those pushing for these changes have good intentions, but I think this particular change would harm more people than it helped.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
--Ole Boot

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 1581
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 2 Mar 2020, 11:57am

Tangled Metal wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:.

I only mentioned her because she's an example of why you cannot use pure looks as a reliable way to determine someone's biological sex.


If an actual biological woman wins a women’s weightlifting event though, that’s fair. This biological man did though, yet again, what a load of balls ( quite literally).

My comments were on response to a post where a photograph of a sportsperson was in action without any other information except comments implying the person was a man. It's certainly unfair to decide on gender purely by looking at a poor quality photograph of someone in a sport that's likely to have biological women with a higher level of looks expected in men.

Perhaps I should have simply posted that ithout more information it's impossible to determine the subject's gender from just a photograph. I was probably long winded in my reply.

Do you have any further links or information on this case? It's certainly better to add details / links to cases raised.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11061304/ ... -olympics/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... mpics.html