Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 12:08pm

Pastychomper wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Actually there was a director of a juvenile gender reassignment centre in the UK who resigned a few years ago iirc. Apparently the only one that specialised in gender issues with kids.

The reason for his resignation was how the board totally ignored an independent care quality audit that basically something like there was a culture to rush into puberty stopping treatment and reassignment over proper assessment which takes time.

I'm sure it's a googlable story that made the papers in the last 2 or so years. If anyone wanted to look for it. But it seems relevant to consider that this is a kid who went through a process led and controlled by adults. Can you be sure there wasn't a degree of hand holding and leading one way? I believe that was your gist of the report ignored by the board of the clinic.

I believe there was a figure for the number of child gender reassignment cases where the child regretted the decision as an adult and even requested a reassignment back to their birth gender. Iirc it was the majority of child reassignment cases had this adult regret. If so it could be that there's a systemic problem with this area. In that case perhaps the person in this article has a very valid case. Easy to judge people but are you certain you have your facts for that judgement?

The level of "hand-holding and leading" has been in the news recently in Scotland, as the Scottish government seems to be keen on making transitioning easier and relying more on self-identification, while lowering the minimum age for transitioning. I gather there's a consultation on, allegedly with the hope of getting the law changed quickly before it can become an election issue.

For the moment I'm still willing to believe that those pushing for these changes have good intentions, but I think this particular change would harm more people than it helped.


I find the whole matter puzzling in that priority is given to mental state over physical state. why? I would think it should be the other way around. I suppose when the Borg take over here it will be natural to swap body parts and add enhancements like wings and extra computing power. But thats science fiction, just as the fairies are fantasy fiction. I wonder what happened in non western cultures in particular ancient ones? did they have trans people?

kwackers
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby kwackers » 2 Mar 2020, 12:31pm

mercalia wrote:I find the whole matter puzzling in that priority is given to mental state over physical state. why? I would think it should be the other way around. I suppose when the Borg take over here it will be natural to swap body parts and add enhancements like wings and extra computing power. But thats science fiction, just as the fairies are fantasy fiction. I wonder what happened in non western cultures in particular ancient ones? did they have trans people?

Mental state is far more important than physical, don't understand why you would think otherwise.
If you're happy it doesn't matter what your physical state is, and if you're unhappy then the same.

Physically perfect specimens commit suicide all the time, badly handicapped people love life and are happy.

I'm pretty sure olde peoples would have had people that felt they were in the wrong bodies just as they would have had people who were gay.
How they reacted to this would depend entirely on their social constructs at the time though.
The only real change is now they can do something about it.

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 1:44pm

mercalia wrote:you cant win!

so a person is suing a hospital for fixing her. she says they should have resisted more. she has now changed her mind :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020


interviewed on World at One today 2/3/2020

I heard no willngness to accept responsibility for what has happened to him/her. But also no mention of seeking £$£ from the NHS, just wanting to change policy.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 2:14pm

What if there's a good point being made?

What I mean is this person is looking for a judicial review aiui, with the aim of raising issues with childhood transition and gender issues. What if the time pressure of puberty is driving a timescale for transition counselling that is unfeasible. What if external lobby groups or alternative sources of information on transition have an unhelpful role in such cases by pressuring puberty stopping/ delaying treatments?

I wonder if it's better to delay such things and try to get more acceptance of post puberty transitions. Both with the person undergoing it and by others. By others I mean those who have no links to transitioning and those who are part of you're trans b community / lobby.

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 2:50pm

Tangled Metal wrote:What if there's a good point being made?

What I mean is this person is looking for a judicial review aiui, with the aim of raising issues with childhood transition and gender issues. What if the time pressure of puberty is driving a timescale for transition counselling that is unfeasible. What if external lobby groups or alternative sources of information on transition have an unhelpful role in such cases by pressuring puberty stopping/ delaying treatments?

I wonder if it's better to delay such things and try to get more acceptance of post puberty transitions. Both with the person undergoing it and by others. By others I mean those who have no links to transitioning and those who are part of you're trans b community / lobby.


The little I know, putting off puberty is important, in which case its a tough call for transition clinics?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 3:22pm

Why is it important?

Let me give you a counter argument. It's only important because of society's inability to fully accept transitioned adults. If everyone accepted a woman with highly masculine characteristics then you'd not need to rush a boy into transitioning pre puberty.

Note I'm putting this idea out for discussion.

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 4:47pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Why is it important?

Let me give you a counter argument. It's only important because of society's inability to fully accept transitioned adults. If everyone accepted a woman with highly masculine characteristics then you'd not need to rush a boy into transitioning pre puberty.

Note I'm putting this idea out for discussion.


I think it would be important for the person transitioned. would you want to be a woman who looks like a man? defeats the object of changing? If society was ok about transitioning there would be no need to do so in the first place? any one could define for them selves what a woman or man is with out the need for physical changes they would be no more significant than having ginger hair etc. I think the matter is socio-psychological rather than psychological which is how I think it is presented. The more I think about it I find it very strange that we have pronouns that indicate what bits and pieces we have, an accompanying social dimension is so ingrained and linked?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Mar 2020, 9:12pm

Bingo! You've got it. If everyone accepted a woman looking like a man then transitioning pre puberty or at all might not be necessary. Transitioning might not be needed or it might be wanted. Doesn't matter which. I just think there's a reason age limits what younger people can legally do across many areas. You can't vote, drink alcohol, make your own medical decisions, drive a car, etc.

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 9:37pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Bingo! You've got it. If everyone accepted a woman looking like a man then transitioning pre puberty or at all might not be necessary. Transitioning might not be needed or it might be wanted. Doesn't matter which. I just think there's a reason age limits what younger people can legally do across many areas. You can't vote, drink alcohol, make your own medical decisions, drive a car, etc.


I am not saying that at all. if people who had female/male bodies werent so strongly stereotyped there would be no need for body changing ( I suspect)

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 2 Mar 2020, 9:51pm

psst want to be a thug threaten some one with a hammer but avoid the clink? get a transgender certificate

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/article/meet-the-thug-who-was-spared-jail-for-being-transgender

Vorpal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Vorpal » 4 Mar 2020, 8:49am

Tangled Metal wrote:What if there's a good point being made?

What I mean is this person is looking for a judicial review aiui, with the aim of raising issues with childhood transition and gender issues. What if the time pressure of puberty is driving a timescale for transition counselling that is unfeasible. What if external lobby groups or alternative sources of information on transition have an unhelpful role in such cases by pressuring puberty stopping/ delaying treatments?

I wonder if it's better to delay such things and try to get more acceptance of post puberty transitions. Both with the person undergoing it and by others. By others I mean those who have no links to transitioning and those who are part of you're trans b community / lobby.

Children are not normally transitioned. They are just put on puberty blockers, the effects of which can be reversed simply by stopping the medication. The same blockers are used for all sorts other medical treatments, and there is no danger in them whatsoever.

It may be that they have point; perhaps just upon reaching legal majority is too young for some. But for others, it could be life-saving. Very few regret the decision to transition, and for those who do, who can say whether it wouldn't the same another 5 years on? Medical professionals are not perfect,; they are doing their best to help people in a way that allow them to thrive.

It is, unfortunately, an issue fraught with controversy. As soon as you mention something like this, anti-trans folk on one side bring up anything form 'I told you so' to conspiracy theories, or say is because we are 'going against nature', while trans folk will say that such articles only encourage the anti-trans folk. And they have a point, as well.

Where is the article that shows how transitioning can be life-saving? Or the joy someone can feel to have a body that matches their inner feelings for the first time.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 4 Mar 2020, 9:16am

My wife, as a teacher, has known teenagers who are deemed to be potentially transitioning and she has long been concerned that they are too young to be making such long term decisions. Her school seems pretty accepting of the concept, but inevitably with teenagers there is the concern that they are in the most unstable part of their lives anyway, even without this extra issue, and decisions that seem right today may not seem so right tomorrow.

But looking on the bright side, think how far we have come in the last few decades. Most large comprehensive schools will now have one or two young people who have uncertain gender identity and who can be open about it and attend classes with other kids. It wasn't always that way.

kwackers
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby kwackers » 4 Mar 2020, 10:02am

Someone's been leaving leaflets dotted around the area I work for a "Coffee Industry Event".
Apparently it's for "womxn and LGBTQIA+ folks only".

Ignoring the obvious discrimination (don't men come under the '+' ?) I'm curious has to how many letters we can keep adding on to the end of all the LGBT etc etc stuff?
Perhaps the '+' is meant to put a stop to it.

(I've no idea what QIA means)

pwa
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 4 Mar 2020, 10:11am

kwackers wrote:Someone's been leaving leaflets dotted around the area I work for a "Coffee Industry Event".
Apparently it's for "womxn and LGBTQIA+ folks only".

Ignoring the obvious discrimination (don't men come under the '+' ?) I'm curious has to how many letters we can keep adding on to the end of all the LGBT etc etc stuff?
Perhaps the '+' is meant to put a stop to it.

(I've no idea what QIA means)

I have been wondering how long that chain of letters can get before it breaks. I know it is an effort at inclusivity, which is great, but it is getting unwieldy. The time is ripe for a short phrase or single word that encapsulates folk who are "other".

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby kwackers » 4 Mar 2020, 10:23am

pwa wrote:I have been wondering how long that chain of letters can get before it breaks. I know it is an effort at inclusivity, which is great, but it is getting unwieldy. The time is ripe for a short phrase or single word that encapsulates folk who are "other".

I've always been slightly narked by peoples desire to continually subdivide things to atomic level
(Mind you it started with music.)

As a straight, white bloke who prefers bottoms to breasts what I want to know is; what letter can I have?
(Are there any free?)