Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 8 Jul 2020, 11:41am

Vorpal wrote:For every good piece of information, she seems to include 2 bits of misinformation.

And when the trans community; even gender therapists (I've seen some posting on twitter about it) try to explain to her, which bits are incorrect or misinformed, she doubles down.

My biggest problem with her, was all this started because she mocked a bulletin from an international health organisation that said 'people who menstruate', which I think is a perfectly good inclusive phrase to use to indicate women, girls, gender nonconforming, queer and trans folk who menstruate, without saying all of that, or maybe leaving someone out who will feel excluded (asexual? intersexual?). Also, although it is very rare, there are also men (non trans) who menstruate.



well could be regarded as offensive if used informally , almost reducing women to baby machines - thats almost as accurate? There are also terms for trans women that I wont mention that are quite accurate but would get them very upset.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

seems ok to me

I was hoping that people here might indicate what other things she says in the essay are wrong, as thats the only piece I have read by her ( I dont do twitter or face book etc)

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Vorpal » 8 Jul 2020, 5:48pm

mercalia wrote:
Vorpal wrote:For every good piece of information, she seems to include 2 bits of misinformation.

And when the trans community; even gender therapists (I've seen some posting on twitter about it) try to explain to her, which bits are incorrect or misinformed, she doubles down.

My biggest problem with her, was all this started because she mocked a bulletin from an international health organisation that said 'people who menstruate', which I think is a perfectly good inclusive phrase to use to indicate women, girls, gender nonconforming, queer and trans folk who menstruate, without saying all of that, or maybe leaving someone out who will feel excluded (asexual? intersexual?). Also, although it is very rare, there are also men (non trans) who menstruate.



well could be regarded as offensive if used informally , almost reducing women to baby machines - thats almost as accurate? There are also terms for trans women that I wont mention that are quite accurate but would get them very upset.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

seems ok to me

I was hoping that people here might indicate what other things she says in the essay are wrong, as thats the only piece I have read by her ( I dont do twitter or face book etc)

Um, the bulletin in question was specifically about helping people who menstruate with period products, home made solutions, and information to bust some myths. People who menstruate was absolutely the best term to use. Not all people who menstruate are women, and not all women menstruate. So, using women, instead, could lead to misunderstandings, especially given that it was an international piece of literature, and likely to be read by people who don't speak English as their second language.

As for JK Rowling, I started to answer in some detail, and then though that there are plenty of people who have already done so, better than me.

Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.thecourieronline.co.uk/a-tho ... s-bigotry/
lengthier, but more thorough https://medium.com/@completelykaty/addr ... 6f761e8f8f
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 9 Jul 2020, 11:15am

thanks for those. they will take some time to digest

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Pastychomper
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Pastychomper » 10 Jul 2020, 10:58am

Thanks, Vorpal. A fair bit to look through there.

Having read Rowling's blog post I have a hard time understanding why some people are calling her a bigot, especially when (like the author of the first article) they seem to see no problems with using far more degrading terms for her than she has used for anyone. Unless, of course, I've missed a second blog post in which she describes trans people as trying to exclude others, hating people they disagree with, or having abhorrent, inexcusable views. It seems as if, to some, "bigotry" means "not agreeing with my world view".

A few things struck me about that first article. Firstly, the author seems to have missed the point about self-identification. The blog post talked at length about moves to make certification easier and quicker, and says this has already been done to an extent. The fact that people in the past have spent years trying to get their certificates doesn't disprove this. Making it easier and quicker will surely make it more likely for transitioning to become (more of?) a trend in some areas.

Another part of the problem is that, for example, a man who considers himself a man but wants to be transferred to a women's prison would find it relatively easy to do so under more relaxed rules - all he'd have to do is lie about his own perception of his status. That has nothing to do with the trans community since the man would not be trans (by any definition other than the legal one), but it would be both a potential problem and a potential fear for other inmates. I'm not clear on why Richardson thinks it's "worrying" to want to mention the issue. Certainly, ignoring it will not make it go away.

The bit about Rowling 'speaking as if the majority of people with autism or Asperger’s are somehow “lesser”' is a straw man, in my opinion. If a form of autism does reduce a person's decision-making ability then it does not make that person of lesser value, but it should definitely be taken into account. Besides, the idea that at least some autistic people might be more vulnerable to making a bad decision seems reasonable. If nothing else, I understand that autism is associated with an increased rate of depression, and experience tells me that depression can impair decision-making.
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mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 10 Jul 2020, 11:39am

One small point do you get the same fuss with trans men and men? or is it an emabattled ( unequal) sex ( women ) find the whole trans women thing even more so.

That "trans woman" means a man -> a woman rather than a woman -> a man has consequences? since in many case it is natural ( and trans people infer ) that a trans woman is a woman in the same way that a white woman is a woman If trans woman meant woman -> a man real women would have no problem? By choosing trans woman means a man -> a woman & inferring they are women, they are using a common pattern of inference to really beg the question, depending on a common habit: It dont always work eg a moissanite diamond is not a diamond ( its a faux diamond, or to call a spade a spade a fake diamond) ? They appear to use Logic to argue their case. But its invalid. So the trans debate to some extent tries to achieve their aims by defining it into the language it seems to me. biased and invalid. Real women should reply to "trans women" they aint trans-women but trans-men since they dont accept the presumption their concept is based on. They have whats called a persuasive definition I think? Once they accept the notion as defined by trans people it is a slippery slope.

This matter lead me to some seedier googling and I found some terms for trans woman/men there that reflect the 2nd idea, which in this case would be trans man = man -> woman eg shemale or ladyboy. ( though trans people would reject these more honest terms due to their source from the porno industry.) Then a shemale is a male? I think the term ladyboy is Thai? And I understand that they are quite common there and there is no problem with them, many families accept that one of their member is one and by inference there isnt the conflict with "real" women?

These few words dont solve the question are trans women women? but does remove some of the force behind trans people claim that of course they are ( in their minds )? They need to prove they are. And "real" women would disagree?
Last edited by mercalia on 10 Jul 2020, 1:49pm, edited 5 times in total.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Oldjohnw » 10 Jul 2020, 11:59am

I struggle with this whole thing. I certainly recognise that some people are born 'trapped'. Everyone being either male or female is not absolute.

But I struggle sometimes with self definition. Too many times when I was working around prisons I encountered situations which defied everything. At one time it was a requirement that someone wishing to change need to live as the other sex for a year. Clearly this was impossible in prisons. So people were stuck.

Then more 'enlightenment' came along. Too many times there were cases where a man decided he was a woman only to commit sex crimes when he was transferred to a woman's prison. Not frequent but sufficient for great discomfort.
John

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Vorpal » 10 Jul 2020, 9:38pm

Pastychomper wrote:Thanks, Vorpal. A fair bit to look through there.

Having read Rowling's blog post I have a hard time understanding why some people are calling her a bigot, especially when (like the author of the first article) they seem to see no problems with using far more degrading terms for her than she has used for anyone. Unless, of course, I've missed a second blog post in which she describes trans people as trying to exclude others, hating people they disagree with, or having abhorrent, inexcusable views. It seems as if, to some, "bigotry" means "not agreeing with my world view".

I think that calling her a bigot stems from some posts on twitter, both in recent months, and last year, and not related directly to the blog linked above.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 11 Jul 2020, 1:08pm


Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 11 Jul 2020, 3:20pm

From what little I read of these things any nastiness isn’t coming from the likes of JKR (who in my estimation is quite a left leaning and generous spirited person) but rather from bigots, extremists and zealots in the trans community who want what they want regardless of all other things. I know someone who’s a trans person - female to male - and ‘he’s’ not vocal about things and just wants to get on with life (which is just what ‘he’s’ doing and doing so with the support of his friends).

To my mind the World isn’t that well served with beauty pageants (like Miss World) or the male equivalents (Mr Universe?). The World would be a better place if folk accepted others for who they are and what they are (so much much less unhelpful judgements) and likewise if people accepted that gender reassignment is very different from being both born and brought up as a boy or a girl.

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 11 Jul 2020, 4:46pm

Carlton green wrote:From what little I read of these things any nastiness isn’t coming from the likes of JKR (who in my estimation is quite a left leaning and generous spirited person) but rather from bigots, extremists and zealots in the trans community who want what they want regardless of all other things. I know someone who’s a trans person - female to male - and ‘he’s’ not vocal about things and just wants to get on with life (which is just what ‘he’s’ doing and doing so with the support of his friends).

To my mind the World isn’t that well served with beauty pageants (like Miss World) or the male equivalents (Mr Universe?). The World would be a better place if folk accepted others for who they are and what they are (so much much less unhelpful judgements) and likewise if people accepted that gender reassignment is very different from being both born and brought up as a boy or a girl.


I get the impression some trans people want to rub out all distinctions why they think trans-women are women and define things in away that it follows logically.

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 11 Jul 2020, 5:15pm

mercalia wrote:
Carlton green wrote:From what little I read of these things any nastiness isn’t coming from the likes of JKR (who in my estimation is quite a left leaning and generous spirited person) but rather from bigots, extremists and zealots in the trans community who want what they want regardless of all other things. I know someone who’s a trans person - female to male - and ‘he’s’ not vocal about things and just wants to get on with life (which is just what ‘he’s’ doing and doing so with the support of his friends).

To my mind the World isn’t that well served with beauty pageants (like Miss World) or the male equivalents (Mr Universe?). The World would be a better place if folk accepted others for who they are and what they are (so much much less unhelpful judgements) and likewise if people accepted that gender reassignment is very different from being both born and brought up as a boy or a girl.


I get the impression some trans people want to rub out all distinctions why they think trans-women are women and define things in away that it follows logically.


I get a similar impression, that some extreme minded trans people want to change all definitions that do not suit their purposes. As such I regard that as a form of corruption and corruption is rarely if ever helpful.

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Jul 2020, 6:16pm

There's a lot of intolerance in the name of tolerance about these days, and JKR appears to be a victim.

I find the uninviting or displatforming of people because of certain views at universities of all places quite distasteful. Views shared by most people just a year or two ago. And they try to hold the rest of the world to ransom.

And I am a leftie progressive!
John

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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 11 Jul 2020, 8:41pm

I've posted on this forum many times before as a parent of a male child that entered transition ... and realised and received the mental health support to live and love as a man ... a very happy gay man with a great partner ..

Women do not have a penis, Women where not born with a penis.

It's just like that, it's just the way it is ...............
The Road Goes On Forever

Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 11 Jul 2020, 10:09pm

landsurfer wrote:I've posted on this forum many times before as a parent of a male child that entered transition ... and realised and received the mental health support to live and love as a man ... a very happy gay man with a great partner ..

Women do not have a penis, Women where not born with a penis.

It's just like that, it's just the way it is ...............


As far as I’m concerned one of the biggest issues is people not being allowed to and not being empowered to live happily in the bodies that they already have. I mentioned earlier that I know of a women who has ‘transitioned to being a man, ‘she’ was by no means a pretty woman and of very solid build, but a lovely soul all the same. To my mind what she needed in her life was both the love of a partner and the mental support to be remain happy with who she was, instead she was given surgical interventions and drugs to help her meet social norms. Daft I call it but that’s life ... perhaps we’ll wake up to things eventually.

Bye the way Landsurfer thank you for sharing that family detail with us. I know several people in same sex relationships and am both pleased for them that they have found happiness and pleased that society has changed enough to largely move on from the horrors of the homophobic past.
Last edited by Carlton green on 11 Jul 2020, 10:10pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickH
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby RickH » 11 Jul 2020, 10:10pm

landsurfer wrote:I've posted on this forum many times before as a parent of a male child that entered transition ... and realised and received the mental health support to live and love as a man ... a very happy gay man with a great partner ..

Women do not have a penis, Women where not born with a penis.

It's just like that, it's just the way it is ...............

I'm not sure it is as simple as that.

There was a programme on TV some time back looking at gender issues. One person that stuck in my memory was a lady who had grown up through girlhood to be an adult, never questioning that she was female only to discover, as a result of a DNA test well into adulthood, that she was actually genetically male. What then in that situation? Do you carry on as before.

There was also discussion about the rate of gender related birth abnormalities - such as babies born with both sets of genitalia - and, at least in previous generations, the decisions made arbitrarily by some doctors sometimes without consulting parents.

We have (or had, as we've lost touch these days) a friend - a guy I worked & socialised with - who transitioned to be a woman. That was a couple of decades ago when it wasn't talked about nearly as much. I remember stories of another guy who thought he was trans but as soon as he started taking hormone treatment lost interest in the transitioning. It seemed ultimately the guy just liked wearing women's clothes.

I think it is an inevitable task supporting the ones who genuinely believe they are in a body of the wrong gender & not intervening too enthusiastically to actually cause harm to folk who actually would be better going down a different path.