Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 11 Jul 2020, 10:19pm

Intersex is not a new issue and has been with us for forever. By all means assist such people by a range of careful routes but IMHO the best care if all would be for us as a society to recognise that each of us is unique and that people should be allowed and empowered to just be happy with who they are rather than being forced to become something different.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jul 2020, 11:19pm

I remember something on TV decades ago about a condition where a person believes a part of their body is not part of them. The extreme cases involved self hurt and mental illness. I can't remember what the treatment was but some had surgery to remove the offending body part others had counselling IIRC. I believe it even has its own medical term to identify it by.

Every time I read or hear about transitioning that comes to mind. It's partly because I struggle to understand the way the people who want to transition feel and think about their circumstances. However there is the feeling that as knowledge and understanding of our own species grows gender might be unimportant or it might be found that the drive behind a wish to transition is down to a physical process within the body that can be measured and fully assessed. As in determine those for whom transitioning is valid and those for whom there could be a medical condition behind it.

I am probably a bigot for thinking this. Accused of having the mentality of those religious toys who believe you can cure homosexuality. I feel trans and gay isn't equivalent or the same. I've always wondered why homosexuality and transitioning were linked into one wider group of people. Anyway, that's a whole new discussion and digression that I'm probably going to get criticised for. It is all confusing to me.

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Pastychomper
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Pastychomper » 13 Jul 2020, 12:49pm

Someone just showed me this thread (I'm not familiar with the site), I think it's somewhat relevant here...

Girls who started to transition at school are choosing to detransition during lockdown. There are a few comments about the possible effects of social contagion and unwanted male attention.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
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mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 13 Jul 2020, 12:54pm

Pastychomper wrote:Someone just showed me this thread (I'm not familiar with the site), I think it's somewhat relevant here...

Girls who started to transition at school are choosing to detransition during lockdown. There are a few comments about the possible effects of social contagion and unwanted male attention.


I think Rowling mentioned this issue

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 13 Jul 2020, 3:51pm

Sexism is alive and well in the transgender debate


At risk is the freedom for boys to grow their hair long and paint their nails, and for girls to climb trees and fix cars, and yet still be boys and girls, respectively. Rather than freeing children from sexist stereotypes, this philosophy imposes them even more strongly. Worse, by denying sex in favour of innate gender identity, we are in danger of also denying the sexism that drives those stereotypes.


The differnt reactions to Rowlings and Cleeses remarks on these matters

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sexism-is-alive-and-well-in-the-transgender-debate?

remember this? I bet this will be banned now? says a alot about how people used distinguish men from women? have we all been hoodwinked ( by activists and "experts") into thinking otherwise?

D363
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby D363 » 13 Jul 2020, 4:17pm

Sexism is indeed alive and well in the 'debate', just as it was in Monty Python. It wasn't that that got Life of Brian banned though.

Having read a number of the links in this thread and associated commentary, there does seem to a depressing amount of hostility to transgender people around at present. Depressing really.

D363
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby D363 » 13 Jul 2020, 9:15pm

D363 wrote:Sexism is indeed alive and well in the 'debate', just as it was in Monty Python. It wasn't that that got Life of Brian banned though.

Having read a number of the links in this thread and associated commentary, there does seem to be a depressing amount of hostility to transgender people around at present.

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 13 Jul 2020, 10:40pm

D363 wrote:Sexism is indeed alive and well in the 'debate', just as it was in Monty Python. It wasn't that that got Life of Brian banned though.

Having read a number of the links in this thread and associated commentary, there does seem to a depressing amount of hostility to transgender people around at present. Depressing really.


hostility to their ideas is not hostility to them. but some of them do seem to get hostile to those who disagree with them? if trans-man meant a man who wanted to transition to being a woman there would be less of a problem, since a trans man is a man, following common patterns of reasoning but no they want to describe them selves as trans-women still with the implication by underhand logic they are women. Thus they can drop the trans prefix altogether as some do eg that professor of philosophy article I mentioned earlier on how Harry Potter taught the prof how to be a woman. If we used trans-man as above then we could then ask questions like can the transition succeed at all or at what stage the transition process has gone far enough? But the present useage dishonestly prevents such questions be asked? in fact makes a mockery of calling it a transition since once you decide you are a woman you are one already and just having the equivalent of plastic surgery?

Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 14 Jul 2020, 6:15am

Pastychomper wrote:Someone just showed me this thread (I'm not familiar with the site), I think it's somewhat relevant here...

Girls who started to transition at school are choosing to detransition during lockdown. There are a few comments about the possible effects of social contagion and unwanted male attention.


It does all rather come back to people not having or not feeling that they have the space to be themselves. Of course girls might also be getting unwanted attention too and see, with envy, that life as a boy seemingly is easier. There are no easy answers but I do wonder whether our Health Service does some things because it can when a better course of action would be to watch and wait. The lockdown has changed and questioned many things, some for the better.

Schools are interesting places, we regard them as all about academic education (teaching) but IMHO that’s only a fraction of what their true purpose should be. We focus on academic league tables and have lost - if we ever had - the idea of rounded child development. The primary target of every school should, IMHO, be focused on child (physical and mental) well being and education should be a preparation for life in the World around them rather than academic knowledge that typically will have no lasting use to them in later life.

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jul 2020, 6:42am

The female life experience is just that ... Female..
From puberty to periods to the menopause, it cannot be overrun by men dressing up.
100 years of suffrage and the fight for equality go out the window when a man can put a dress on and steal .. or even dilute those hard fought for rights.
I do not want my girls, 9 and 10, to suffer in any way from the invasion of their toilets or changing rooms by males demanding that they are the sexual/ gender/physical, equivalent and equal of my girls in that space.
Safe spaces for females are an imperative and a right.
The Road Goes On Forever

Carlton green
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Carlton green » 14 Jul 2020, 7:26am

landsurfer wrote:The female life experience is just that ... Female..
From puberty to periods to the menopause, it cannot be overrun by men dressing up.
100 years of suffrage and the fight for equality go out the window when a man can put a dress on and steal .. or even dilute those hard fought for rights.
I do not want my girls, 9 and 10, to suffer in any way from the invasion of their toilets or changing rooms by males demanding that they are the sexual/ gender/physical, equivalent and equal of my girls in that space.
Safe spaces for females are an imperative and a right.


Pretty much my thoughts on the matter too though that’s not to say I’m without sympathy for those in genuine and well considered transition.

I note that on the 11th you reminded members that you had a homosexual son, as such you’ll have a better insight than most on issues of gender and sexuality. To my mind there is a risk that - and some damage might have occurred already - in supporting the needs of trans people we neglect the needs of those who are not. As for women’s rights I personally am adamant that women should always be treated as fairly as can be made to be possible in comparison to men - and likewise men in comparison to women. Of course women and men are different and typically have both different needs and life courses, but that is no reason not to seek and give equality.

Safe spaces for women are and have long been important, let’s recognise that and manage the issues. Of course others need safe spaces too ... life is full of compromises and the appropriate management of them. I would guess that at times your son feels the need for safe spaces too.

D363
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby D363 » 14 Jul 2020, 7:50am

mercalia wrote:
D363 wrote:Sexism is indeed alive and well in the 'debate', just as it was in Monty Python. It wasn't that that got Life of Brian banned though.

Having read a number of the links in this thread and associated commentary, there does seem to a depressing amount of hostility to transgender people around at present. Depressing really.


hostility to their ideas is not hostility to them.


True, but from what I've seen there is a lot of hostility to them, frequently presented as hostility to ideas (yes, that old chestnut). The intolerance is far from one sided. Some of which is a function of more general problems with social media communication but much of it can't be explained by that alone.

A lot of comments that trans people should never be included in their identified gender and always according to birth sex, regardless of any medical interventions they might have had. Plenty of more toxic stuff along with that. That to me is not acceptance.

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jul 2020, 8:16am

D363 wrote:
True, but from what I've seen there is a lot of hostility to them, frequently presented as hostility to ideas (yes, that old chestnut). The intolerance is far from one sided. Some of which is a function of more general problems with social media communication but much of it can't be explained by that alone.

A lot of comments that trans people should never be included in their identified gender and always according to birth sex, regardless of any medical interventions they might have had. Plenty of more toxic stuff along with that. That to me is not acceptance.


Lets take a trip back to the OP.
Transgender Athletes; Using their superior male physiques to supplant women in competition ..
Is wrong. Is cheating.
McKinnion is one of the worst, and most vocal about his rights to compete and win women's races.
Does anyone here support a mans right to enter a woman's sporting event for the purpose of winning through the advantage of a more powerful, male, physique ?
The Road Goes On Forever

mercalia
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 14 Jul 2020, 9:44am

D363 wrote:
mercalia wrote:
D363 wrote:Sexism is indeed alive and well in the 'debate', just as it was in Monty Python. It wasn't that that got Life of Brian banned though.

Having read a number of the links in this thread and associated commentary, there does seem to a depressing amount of hostility to transgender people around at present. Depressing really.


hostility to their ideas is not hostility to them.


True, but from what I've seen there is a lot of hostility to them, frequently presented as hostility to ideas (yes, that old chestnut). The intolerance is far from one sided. Some of which is a function of more general problems with social media communication but much of it can't be explained by that alone.

A lot of comments that trans people should never be included in their identified gender and always according to birth sex, regardless of any medical interventions they might have had. Plenty of more toxic stuff along with that. That to me is not acceptance.


accepted as what? ( "trans women") as women maybe not, as people fine. I am puzzled at all the kerfuffal since dealing with one another as just genderlless/sexless people is more than adequate most of the time? There are just a few situations where it matters eg dating, childbirth, "safespaces"?

D363
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Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby D363 » 14 Jul 2020, 11:22am

mercalia wrote:
accepted as what? ( "trans women") as women maybe not, as people fine. I am puzzled at all the kerfuffal since dealing with one another as just genderlless/sexless people is more than adequate most of the time? There are just a few situations where it matters eg dating, childbirth, "safespaces"?


Accepted as what they identify as.