Peace & Reconciliation?

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landsurfer
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby landsurfer » 16 Mar 2019, 9:06am

Oldjohnw wrote:Being charged is not the same as being found guilty. It heralds the start of due process, at last. Far from being unfair, as some claim, the accused gets his 'moment in court'.


Good point ...... Brace yourself for the screams of outrage from the families and the liberal press if he's found not guilty though .... :roll:
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pete75
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby pete75 » 18 Mar 2019, 12:27pm

landsurfer wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Being charged is not the same as being found guilty. It heralds the start of due process, at last. Far from being unfair, as some claim, the accused gets his 'moment in court'.


Good point ...... Brace yourself for the screams of outrage from the families and the liberal press if he's found not guilty though .... :roll:


And from the right wing press if he is found guilty. In fact that source is already screaming outrage at the prospect of there even being a trial.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... a-won.html

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Cunobelin
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Mar 2019, 2:13pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Being charged is not the same as being found guilty. It heralds the start of due process, at last. Far from being unfair, as some claim, the accused gets his 'moment in court'.


... and also legal protection as things now have to follow the proper process

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Cunobelin
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Mar 2019, 2:23pm

Interesting one on some of the Miltary forums and FaceBook

Boycott the Cenotaph


The idea is that any march, protest etc could be hijacked or become a political tool - this is an effective way of making voices heard

Tangled Metal
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Mar 2019, 2:54pm

It's so long ago now. It should have had its own truth and reconciliation process and people could have moved on. I have to say it that South Africa had arguably a more ruthless and prejudiced system in place but at least in part because of the T&R process it has moved forward. I don't think the GFA really allows for that to happen. It's possibly the best agreement we could get but let's not think it's perfect. A T&R would have been something to help.

Is the NI situation really more difficult than the SA apartheid system that T&R wouldn't work? Is the history to painful to confront equally on all sides?

slowster
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby slowster » 18 Mar 2019, 4:16pm

I doubt a truth and reconciliation process will occur in Northern Ireland, because all sides at senior levels do not want the truth to come out about what they did. In South Africa it was mainly individuals who testified who had been part of the repression by the former aprtheid regime. That regime no longer existed and I think its leaders and politicians were by that point largely out of power. The IRA, Sein Fein, the UK Govt., civil service, Army and Intelligence Services still exist, and senior people who were in those organisations are still in positions of power. A T&R process would threaten them and the 'establishment' that exists on each side.

A T&R process would need to include not just the foot soldiers involved in the various incidents, but the leaders as well. Soldier F may have pulled the trigger, but a great deal of responsibility lies with others: Lieutenant Colonel Wilford disobeyed orders when he sent those men into that part of the Bogside, the senior officers made it clear that they wanted soldiers to be 'aggressive' in dealing with the march and rioters, and the Parachute Regiment was arguably a very bad choice for such duties, and the politicians who sent the army into NI knew that it was fraught with risk.

Moreover, whilst for Bloody Sunday Soldier F might be a scapegoat acceptable to the UK Govt. and the army, there were other incidents where the Govt. and army could not simply blame some junior soldier losing control. A T&R process would include the activities of the likes of the MRF and the FRU, which would be extremely embarrassing for the UK Govt. and army.

Moreover, whereas I think the SA T&R process was very one sided, because the ANC was not a very effective military/insurgency organisation, in NI the other sides have probably as much, if not more, that they don't want publicised.

As for the victims, I think the characterisation of them as baying for revenge is in many cases deeply offensive to them. I think what matters most to many people who have lost family members in such situations is that there is acknowledgment and recognition of what happened, whether that be in a court of law or in a T&R process. When Robert McCartney was murdered by IRA members, his sisters turned down an offer from the IRA to execute those responsible. They did not want revenge; they wanted justice and for it to be public.

If there were to be a T&R process in NI, then it would need to be for the benefit of the victims and their families. Many of the calls for such a process seem instead to be more concerned about such a process providing immunity for the perpetrators on both sides.

landsurfer
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby landsurfer » 18 Mar 2019, 7:03pm

Apologies for some knee jerk comments earlier slowster...
As someone that lived through the worst of it, school blown up, my girlfriend killed in the Abercorn, an uncle kneecapped ... the daily routine of pretending that nothing was happening around us ....
As a member of the Unionist, Orange (and Black) community during those days my friendships with fellow cyclists and model aircraft flyers from all sections of society were encouraged by the very family members that would have manned any barricades in the defence of our culture.
The ironic nature of life in Ulster has always been complicated.

The bottom line ... prosecute any Soldier, Police Officer, UDR member if they are suspected of serious crime ... and also IRA, UVF, UDA ... et al ... don't just pick on one group ... please.
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djnotts
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby djnotts » 18 Mar 2019, 8:16pm

"The families of 13 innocent unarmed civilians who were murdered want those responsible to be prosecuted and to face justice. That doesn't sound like revenge to me. In fact given that it's taken 47 years to get to this point and given that no one will be prosecuted for 9 of those murders, they have been very restrained and dignified."

Plus one - just so. But it's always the victorious occupying force that decides which side is the war criminal.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Ben@Forest » 18 Mar 2019, 10:27pm

djnotts wrote:Plus one - just so. But it's always the victorious occupying force that decides which side is the war criminal.


Because there were no war criminals in the IRA

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 3947651925

Just unfound killers of 12 year old boys.

djnotts
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby djnotts » 19 Mar 2019, 7:14am

"Because there were no war criminals in the IRA"

Which I neither wrote nor implied. Of course there were.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Ben@Forest » 19 Mar 2019, 8:10am

djnotts wrote:"Because there were no war criminals in the IRA"

Which I neither wrote nor implied. Of course there were.


I would say the following:

djnotts wrote:
Plus one - just so. But it's always the victorious occupying force that decides which side is the war criminal.


Suggests that the authorities of the state, whether the legislature, the RUC, the UDR or the British Army were an 'occupying power'.

And that they would only see the actions of terrorist groups as criminal, not their own. When actually there were plenty of investigations into criminal actions by state actors, Bloody Sunday just being the most high profile of these.

And it was a deliberate part of the Peace Process that neither side was seen or described as 'victorious' or 'losing'.

merseymouth
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby merseymouth » 19 Mar 2019, 8:36pm

Hi again, It is of course a matter of record that Martin MacGuiness was never convicted for any offence, but he was actually arrested for his actions?
He was nabbed by the British army, but I think they weren't concentrating much as they laid hands on him near Letterkenny, which is of course in Eire!
After that he was always as slippy as Teflon.
Wherever one is in the world the politicians always make life a trial for the ordinary man or woman in the street.
If we don't learn from the lessons of history we are condemned to repeat them. MM

merseymouth
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby merseymouth » 23 Mar 2019, 12:06pm

Hello there, Well, Witness O has addd fuel to the fire over the inequalities over the "Irish Problem"!
The naming of four persons who where responsible for the Birmingham Bombing, 3 deceased, one still living in freedom near Dublin, certainly flags up the different way in which alleged terrorists (Sometimes Convicted ones) and British Troops are treated?
Certain names where raised back at the time of the outrage, who were then implicated further by sources, yet such offenders were given a Free Pass by the British Government under the auspices of the Good Friday Agreement.
The statements & testimonies of such people appear to be pukkha if used against British Soldiers, yet such opinion must not be applied to bring Irish Nationalist felons to justice?
The IRA are certainly still active in Irish politics, with mainstream politicians runnig scared over the threat the IRA still pose! They haven't gone away, nor do they wish to let up the pressure being applied against those who they still consider adversaries. Fine Gael have been making gains to the detriment of Sinn Fein, so now the IRA play the revenge strategy again. Openly stating that all of their "Troops" have a stay out of gaol card, but insist that such an amnesty must never be applied to British Troops.
Maybe now the Dail must publicly put an end to this disgraceful situation! MM

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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 3 Apr 2019, 5:57pm

The Paras weren't a trendy enough left wing cause to motivate the Blair government to give them immunity from prosecution documents.

Fortunately, I survived 2 tours without shooting at anyone that didn't genuinely deserve it, but came away with the firm belief that when you train military killers and then send them to do policing job instead, then you're asking for trouble. The people to blame are those that formed the government that sent them in to an inappropriate role and environment, and if anyone bears responsibility it is them, and it should be them in the dock,.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Peace & Reconciliation?

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Apr 2019, 12:31am

I read something about the shadow chancellor calling Churchill villain because he read home secretary who sent the army to calm the violence between striking Welsh miners and local police constabulary. Not knowing about the incident I googled it. What I found out was that the army was more reserved and better received by locals than their own police force.

My point being the army is capable of restraint. In that case it was led by the commanding officer who kept his men to rules of engagement that created the restraint. However I do not think the Paras are suitable for army policing activities. They are what I imagine the Yanks call "hard charging" infantry soldiers. Good at going forward but not backwards or policing.

That perception might be unfair and ignorant but in my defence I don't have much contact with soldiers. My only knowledge of paras is from someone who lived near where paras were based and who got caught up when the paras go out for a bit of fun when back at base. Other than that it's family members of my grandparent's age who served in Royal marines or us army during wwii. Not much was talked about by them.