landsurfer wrote:reohn2 wrote:Ever seen what man does for 'sport'?
Yes ... Cycle ....
They have many other sports not as benign as cycling
landsurfer wrote:reohn2 wrote:Ever seen what man does for 'sport'?
Yes ... Cycle ....
Ben@Forest wrote:You could say it's wrong, but in the altered world we have created it is likely that if the RSPB didn't do it we could see the extirpation of the curlew.
kwackers wrote:Ben@Forest wrote:You could say it's wrong, but in the altered world we have created it is likely that if the RSPB didn't do it we could see the extirpation of the curlew.
How long have these species lived with their predators? 10 years, 100, 1000 - or more likely tens of millions.
To blame their demise on predation is to ignore the real issues.
Perhaps removing their predators will work as a temporary fix but almost every threatened species is threatened due to the activity of one particular animal.
We're creating a new world and expecting the old one to somehow fit but that requires more and more management from us.
Why not just accept the world has changed and allow nature to do it's stuff and sort out a new balance?
Likely it'll be a bit rich in "pests", squirrels, foxes, rabbits, rats, mice, pigeons etc but it should become self balancing.
Ben@Forest wrote:I wonder therefore if Chris Packham et al are going to challenge the RSPB too:
Lethal control of predators is therefore a pragmatic solution to reducing predation pressure. This is not a solution that RSPB accepts lightly (see this recent blog from our Conservation Director), but for conserving a rapidly-declining species such as the curlew, which is known to be adversely affected by predation, the case is a strong one. Which predators should be targeted and how much effort should be put into reducing their impact on curlew, without seeking to eradicate them or impact adversely on their own population status? Collating evidence from a range of sources on i) effects on breeding curlew, and ii) which species can be most effectively controlled through legal culling, highlights foxes and also hooded and carrion crows as priorities for control.
This control is currently being practised through shooting and through the use of Larsen traps. You could say it's wrong, but in the altered world we have created it is likely that if the RSPB didn't do it we could see the extirpation of the curlew.
Cugel wrote:I feel that the RSPB, like the RSPCA, The World Wildlife Fund and other organisations of that ilk have become large bureaucracies staffed and run by people who are politic at preserving their organisation and the large amounts of dosh they enjoy. To do so they make themselves acceptable to the larger forces in society, including the forces of farming, sports shooting and various other human activities that would like to eliminate all "pests", "weeds" and other life they see as harming their profits and nasty pleasures.
There is no credible evidence for "managing" nature that indicates it improves matters, for either humans or the other beasts. In fact, such "management" is notorious for generating vast and very harmful side-effects. Just now we are seeing the elimination of whole species by human "management" of the biosphere at an extinction rate possibly greater than even that of one of the Great Extinction Events of the Earth's past history.
Many of the "reasons" for having culls are not based in any meaningful or resilient kind of science but in a set of hoary old prejudices, often found in the sort of people who populate the so-called Countryside Alliance. These people are generally possessed by unpleasant motives which seem an admixture of sadism, love of money and a feeling of status from being dominant over nature. Nasty, they are. Lethally nasty.
Cugel
Tangled Metal wrote:Listen to Cugel he knows a lot. If he says RSPB is wrong well...
Ben@Forest wrote:Tangled Metal wrote:Listen to Cugel he knows a lot. If he says RSPB is wrong well...
His last post suggests that the wildlife and animal welfare charities in this country are only in it for the money. That we should stop managing the countryside (great - hope everyone is sorted for bread). And that most people who hunt, shoot or fish are sadists. Anyone on here who buys chicken should also fall into that category.
You can make philosophical arguments for all if the above. And he is a bit of a philosopher. Walden A Life in the Woods - might be our model for existence - remember to leave that carbon fibre bike back in the 21st century!
Ben@Forest wrote:I wonder therefore if Chris Packham et al are going to challenge the RSPB too:
Lethal control of predators is therefore a pragmatic solution to reducing predation pressure. This is not a solution that RSPB accepts lightly (see this recent blog from our Conservation Director), but for conserving a rapidly-declining species such as the curlew, which is known to be adversely affected by predation, the case is a strong one. Which predators should be targeted and how much effort should be put into reducing their impact on curlew, without seeking to eradicate them or impact adversely on their own population status? Collating evidence from a range of sources on i) effects on breeding curlew, and ii) which species can be most effectively controlled through legal culling, highlights foxes and also hooded and carrion crows as priorities for control.
This control is currently being practised through shooting and through the use of Larsen traps. You could say it's wrong, but in the altered world we have created it is likely that if the RSPB didn't do it we could see the extirpation of the curlew.
kwackers wrote:Human management is often anything but, cugel has it right. It's self interest, politics and dodgy science at best.
Poisoning birds of prey not because they eat all the grouse but someone thinks they do. Bludgeoning baby seals because "they're eating all the fish".
Killing hedgehogs because they're "eating all the baby birds".
You simply end up pitting one self interest group against another with no real solution other than infighting, bickering and the mass killing of a species trying to cut a living.
The whole sorry mess is an endless list of poor assumptions, bad science, misconceptions and general idiocy.
It's not as if it's even that easy to predict how an eco system works. Often it turns out that 'wilding' an area results in lower bio-diversity not more.
The thing that generally does seem to work is large herbivores free to roam and apex predators free to kill them. Pretty much everywhere that occurs ends up back in balance.
Not sure how much of a hit it'll be in blightly though.
mercalia wrote:bring back the wolves?
kwackers wrote:mercalia wrote:bring back the wolves?
They'd keep deer numbers down without having to employ people to shoot them (and various other 'pests' at the same time).
There's some interesting research on bringing back apex predators - although in fairness most of it is in areas big enough to support them. Not sure how much would be applicable to the UK. I suspect sheep are easier prey than deer...