Oldjohnw wrote:The whole thing is rather daft. England leave itself?
But then with this lot in charge..........
England is the larger part but to say that ignores the influence of Scotland and Wales which have let's face it punched above their weight in the union, especially Scotland. From the armed forces to senior political positions.
Take labour in my lifetime that I have been aware of politics there's been leaders from Wales, Scotland, England, Scotland and now London. I used London since it has a huge population compared to Wales and Scotland. Population of Scotland would be equivalent to the population of London from the centre of London to halfway to the m25. Just to put it in perspective. This means that Scotland is mad twice as many Labour leaders as London despite half the population or less.
Totally irrelevant but IMHO Scotland and Wales have been significant parts of the Union more so than their size might indicate they should have.
Ah, you can't beat a bit of selective memory to justify a nationalist argument.
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thirdcrank wrote:I fancy that if there were to be a referendum in which only the residents of England could take part with a yes/no question on the lines of "Should England gain independence? " then I'd anticipate a majority for yes, especially if the social media types got cracking on the money that would be saved.
There has to be a pre-existing desire to whip up. You can't whip up from nothing. In Wales there has been an independence movement since the year dot but it still has no traction, nobody talks about it, it is not an issue. After decades of campaigning by PC. Are people in the street in England talking about leaving the UK? No, so it won't go anywhere.
The problem with PC is that they have yet to articulate a vision of "Welshness" which does not involve speaking the Welsh language fluently. As this still very much a minority thing, and as the approach to bilingualism is to recruit Welsh speakers rather than provide language tuition, PC is unlikely to get any more popular as their vision of Welshness excludes the majority of the population born in the country.
Scotland can form an identity around the distinct institutions- the Kirk, the education system and Scots Law. Making it easy for everyone including people moving in to identify with a Scottish perspective.
Wales and PC could learn quite a lot from Scotland IMO....
thirdcrank wrote:I fancy that if there were to be a referendum in which only the residents of England could take part with a yes/no question on the lines of "Should England gain independence? " then I'd anticipate a majority for yes, especially if the social media types got cracking on the money that would be saved.
There has to be a pre-existing desire to whip up. You can't whip up from nothing. In Wales there has been an independence movement since the year dot but it still has no traction, nobody talks about it, it is not an issue. After decades of campaigning by PC. Are people in the street in England talking about leaving the UK? No, so it won't go anywhere.
The problem with PC is that they have yet to articulate a vision of "Welshness" which does not involve speaking the Welsh language fluently. As this still very much a minority thing, and as the approach to bilingualism is to recruit Welsh speakers rather than provide language tuition, PC is unlikely to get any more popular as their vision of Welshness excludes the majority of the population born in the country.
Scotland can form an identity around the distinct institutions- the Kirk, the education system and Scots Law. Making it easy for everyone including people moving in to identify with a Scottish perspective.
Wales and PC could learn quite a lot from Scotland IMO....
TPO
The most populous area of Wales is also much closer to London than is Scotland. I am closer to London living here in South Wales than I was living in the north of England. I sometimes do a trip to Bath as a day excursion.
A lot of people - both here and around the world - think that England is the UK and that Scotland and Wales are bits added on. Many southerners, I fear, including people in government, don't actually know what Scotland is.
Oldjohnw wrote:A lot of people - both here and around the world - think that England is the UK and that Scotland and Wales are bits added on. Many southerners, I fear, including people in government, don't actually know what Scotland is.
Many people who think about Scotland don't think about Wales. And the difference between Wales and Scotland is interesting. Looking at the Newport West by-election, Labour first, Cons second, UKIP third and Plaid a very poor fourth, a fringe party with few friends. Newport is a largely working class town. Contrast that with Scotland! In 29 years of living in Wales I have not had one serious conversation with anyone here about the possibility of independence.
Oldjohnw wrote:A lot of people - both here and around the world - think that England is the UK and that Scotland and Wales are bits added on. Many southerners, I fear, including people in government, don't actually know what Scotland is.
Many people who think about Scotland don't think about Wales. And the difference between Wales and Scotland is interesting. Looking at the Newport West by-election, Labour first, Cons second, UKIP third and Plaid a very poor fourth, a fringe party with few friends. Newport is a largely working class town. Contrast that with Scotland! In 29 years of living in Wales I have not had one serious conversation with anyone here about the possibility of independence.
I had noticed that about Wales. Don't forget, that despite the position of the SNP - which is to an extent a factor of the electoral system (Scotland used to send a disproportionate number of Labour MPs) - the Indie Ref was significantly won by unionists. So the appetite for independence North of the Border is not as great as the presence of the SNP in Westminster appears to indicate. Recent events in London could, of course, encourage many more to want to escape that lot in London. Wouldn't we all?
People seem to be missing the effects of slogans on the side of a big red bus.
Whatever the Brexit outcome, worldwide factors mean we are in for a rough ride economically. Looking for somebody to blame is an easy way out. Although the party I'm thinking of is UKIP, I think that the UK bit largely = England (although Neil Hamilton did manage a couple of thousand votes in yesterday's Newport bye election.)
Wait while the big red bus is pointing out the economies that could be made if England were to be independent.
On the matter of elections, Ed Balls lost his seat in this constituency partly because of the suggestion that the SNP would dictate his next budget. FWIW, his tory successor Andrea Jenkyns has been one of the most outspoken Leavers in Parliament.
Oldjohnw wrote:A lot of people - both here and around the world - think that England is the UK and that Scotland and Wales are bits added on. Many southerners, I fear, including people in government, don't actually know what Scotland is.
That could be a patronising remark. It could equally be said that people in Kirkwall or Strathpeffer don't know what London or the south-east is. And in terms of political knowledge pro rata there'll be as many people in Scotland who can't name anyone beyond the First Minister in the Scottish govt as Londoners who can name Sadiq Khan but no one else in his mayoral team.
And given tourism figures it is almost definite that again pro rata more English people visit Scotland than Scots visit England. I'm not much of a believer in the 'travel broadens the mind' theory but it imparts a sense of place. A close relative is not especially knowledgeable but for most of his married years holidayed by caravanning in Scotland, he knows much of it very well indeed.
Oldjohnw wrote:A lot of people - both here and around the world - think that England is the UK and that Scotland and Wales are bits added on. Many southerners, I fear, including people in government, don't actually know what Scotland is.
That could be a patronising remark. It could equally be said that people in Kirkwall or Strathpeffer don't know what London or the south-east is. And in terms of political knowledge pro rata there'll be as many people in Scotland who can't name anyone beyond the First Minister in the Scottish govt as Londoners who can name Sadiq Khan but no one else in his mayoral team.
And given tourism figures it is almost definite that again pro rata more English people visit Scotland than Scots visit England. I'm not much of a believer in the 'travel broadens the mind' theory but it imparts a sense of place. A close relative is not especially knowledgeable but for most of his married years holidayed by caravanning in Scotland, he knows much of it very well indeed.
But our legislature is not in Kirkwall. Or strathpeffer.
Oldjohnw wrote:But our legislature is not in Kirkwall. Or strathpeffer.
I genuinely don't understand your reasoning. You're saying that someone from the Isle of Dogs should have a greater knowledge about the Isle of Mull than vice versa?
In terms of the executive given that Scotland has its own domestic government (and intentionally separated itself from as much London influence) it's harder to then complain that London doesn't pay as much attention.
I live in the north-east, closer to Edinburgh than London and l think politically and financially Scotland has more attention paid to it than this region. So l don't buy the poor, neglected Scotland schtick.
Oldjohnw wrote:But our legislature is not in Kirkwall. Or strathpeffer.
I genuinely don't understand your reasoning. You're saying that someone from the Isle of Dogs should have a greater knowledge about the Isle of Mull than vice versa?
In terms of the executive given that Scotland has its own domestic government (and intentionally separated itself from as much London influence) it's harder to then complain that London doesn't pay as much attention.
I live in the north-east, closer to Edinburgh than London and l think politically and financially Scotland has more attention paid to it than this region. So l don't buy the poor, neglected Scotland schtick.
I never said any such thing, nor do I write of the poor neglected Scot. Read my post and see what I was saying, not your construct. And I never mentioned the Isles of eithe Dogs or Mull. In the Scottish indie referendum people in the south were often of the view: Scotland, dunno about that, let them go of that's what they want. How often do you hear people speak of England as if it wa the entire UK, or of the Queen of England?
As it happens, I live a couple of miles in the English side of the border. I have quite a bit of awareness.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 6 Apr 2019, 7:47am, edited 1 time in total.
What does she know of London, who only London knows? I bet most people in Strathpeffer know more about London than most Londoners know about Strathpeffer
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