Extinction Rebellion

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brynpoeth
Posts: 11276
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Oct 2019, 3:44am

BR Mark 1+2 coaches with opening windows are much better than modern air-conditioned trains
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

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Sweep
Posts: 5775
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 4:57pm
Location: London

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Sweep » 22 Oct 2019, 8:11am

Tangled Metal wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Pacers are still delighting travellers after decades, most cars of that age have been scrapped :wink:

Pacers are not delighting anyone who has the misfortune of being a passenger in one. Trust me. They're rubbish trains and so past their replacement date, which imho should have been straight after the first one was built!

+1
They wouldn't be tolerated down south.
And bryn is safely many many miles from the risk of being on one.
Sweep

merseymouth
Posts: 1116
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby merseymouth » 22 Oct 2019, 8:25am

Hi Kwackers :) , The Fiction part of "VW Diesel-Gate" was the data that that offered in the first place, blatantly fiddled process!
Thy knew that they were doing a very naughty thing, but their excuse was that "Others must certainly be doing the same thing". Would you buy a new car from men like that? I say "Men" as I don't believe it was done by members of the fair sex, (Antediluvian style comment) by an Oldie.
The entire E.U. Performance & Economy Testing Process is twisted & distorted, barely connected by real life, computer simulated fantasy!
I know nothing about the equivalent process for electric & hybrid vehicles, but I suspect that it will just as distorted :oops: .
The Bean Counters are running the industry as Ralph Nader would say :twisted: . MM

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Oct 2019, 8:59am

It's a given car manufacturer model stats are fiddled. The mpg figures have never been achievable same with the top speed.

Well, except for my mum's old mini when I was 17. I got that to tie 99mph top speed once. Downhill, wind assisted on a very quiet stretch of motorway. Sorry officer, I meant a friend told me about doing it.

I find it interesting that a car like the old mini felt like you were going fast when you really weren't. Compared to modern times you can go fast and feel like you're going slowly it's that smooth. Perhaps we need to design into cars the sense of going fast. Say anything above 60mph rattles you around a lot and above 80mph you feel it's getting dangerous going so fast. A modern mini probably does a ton without you feeling it. Not like the old days when you needed a downhill to get to 70mph.

kwackers
Posts: 13732
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby kwackers » 22 Oct 2019, 12:01pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Kwackers :) , The Fiction part of "VW Diesel-Gate" was the data that that offered in the first place, blatantly fiddled process!
Thy knew that they were doing a very naughty thing, but their excuse was that "Others must certainly be doing the same thing". Would you buy a new car from men like that? I say "Men" as I don't believe it was done by members of the fair sex, (Antediluvian style comment) by an Oldie.
The entire E.U. Performance & Economy Testing Process is twisted & distorted, barely connected by real life, computer simulated fantasy!
I know nothing about the equivalent process for electric & hybrid vehicles, but I suspect that it will just as distorted :oops: .
The Bean Counters are running the industry as Ralph Nader would say :twisted: . MM

Ignoring the illegality.

Have you ever considered why the performance and economy testing isn't "real life"?
In a nutshell there's simply no other way. You need a test cycle that's fixed in order to fairly compare one vehicle to another.
FWIW I've never had any trouble meeting the rated MPG of the cars I've owned and TBH I don't understand why others can't (well, that's not true I can see exactly why they can't. Most folk don't realise the brake pedal uses fuel. The less you press it the further it goes on a gallon.)

Electric vehicles are the same. The WLTP figures for range are usually about 10% optimistic for your average driver but can actually be reached once you realise that constant acceleration & braking plus insisting on doing 70 on the motorway rather than 60 with all it's accompanied changes in speed don't do the consumption any favours.

So fantasy? For some definitely but not all.
Ultimately though someone has to come up with a model for mixed driving which is consistent and can be applied fairly to all vehicles.
And if some sensible driving can achieve those numbers then I'm not sure what the problem is? (Hills and wind notwithstanding)

Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby landsurfer » 22 Oct 2019, 12:06pm

kwackers wrote:Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.


There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

kwackers
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Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby kwackers » 22 Oct 2019, 1:27pm

landsurfer wrote:There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.

What's stupid about the whole diesel gate thing is the problems have been known for a while, on this very forum some years ago there was a thread about diesel where I remember almost being alone in pointing out that in the real world diesels were horrifically bad. There was plenty of evidence from lots of independent sources showing this years before it became common knowledge.

I guess in a few years petrol and diesel will be just memories and so emissions will be removed from the hands of the vehicle manufacturers.
In the meantime the options for cheating are dwindling and the cost vs benefits probably a lot harder to justify.

I do wonder what the cost / benefit ratio of diesel gate was. I find it hard to believe VW would have lost so many sales from slightly worse performing engines that they'd be in profit after the billions they've lost fixing the issue plus the ongoing costs.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Oct 2019, 1:40pm

It's the small margins that probably matter. Slightly better = more sales = tangible benefits. It also probably added to the vw reputation too. Always thought vw group of companies were overrated. Always went Ford or Vauxhall but unlikely they're any better anyway. At least cheaper.

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Cugel
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Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Cugel » 22 Oct 2019, 1:45pm

landsurfer wrote:
kwackers wrote:Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.


There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.


Indeed. Modern business basically behaves in a fashion very similar to that of criminal gangs, in that they care not a jot who they hurt or even kill in order to get their dosh. Or what damage they do to a society and its institutions.

In fact, with many businesses the only difference between them and the criminal gang is that the gang bribes and otherwise suborns the legal system to look the other way whilst the big businesses bribe and suborn politicians to make laws that allow for their hugely damaging activities to become legal.

Both are despoilers and ravagers of life, in a variety of ways. Both are absolutely addicted to money. Both are essentially and fundamentally amoral.

Cugel

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1956
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 Oct 2019, 7:44pm

I see that young Greta Thunberg has declined he Nordic Environment Award along with the accompanying 500,000 Swedish Kroner because the Nordic countries are not doing enough.

Good on her. Unlike what some of the science denying press have claimed she is not in it for the money.
John

Cycling and recycling

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby reohn2 » 3 Nov 2019, 12:29pm

-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1956
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Oldjohnw » 3 Nov 2019, 1:04pm

And a new coalmine to open in Cumbria, celebrated by the local MP. Tory.
John

Cycling and recycling