Extinction Rebellion

[Cyril Haearn]

BR Mark 1+2 coaches with opening windows are much better than modern air-conditioned trains

[Sweep]

Pacers are still delighting travellers after decades, most cars of that age have been scrapped

Pacers are not delighting anyone who has the misfortune of being a passenger in one. Trust me. They're rubbish trains and so past their replacement date, which imho should have been straight after the first one was built!

+1
They wouldn't be tolerated down south.
And bryn is safely many many miles from the risk of being on one.

[merseymouth]

Hi Kwackers , The Fiction part of "VW Diesel-Gate" was the data that that offered in the first place, blatantly fiddled process!
Thy knew that they were doing a very naughty thing, but their excuse was that "Others must certainly be doing the same thing". Would you buy a new car from men like that? I say "Men" as I don't believe it was done by members of the fair sex, (Antediluvian style comment) by an Oldie.
The entire E.U. Performance & Economy Testing Process is twisted & distorted, barely connected by real life, computer simulated fantasy!
I know nothing about the equivalent process for electric & hybrid vehicles, but I suspect that it will just as distorted .
The Bean Counters are running the industry as Ralph Nader would say . MM

[Tangled Metal]

It's a given car manufacturer model stats are fiddled. The mpg figures have never been achievable same with the top speed.

Well, except for my mum's old mini when I was 17. I got that to tie 99mph top speed once. Downhill, wind assisted on a very quiet stretch of motorway. Sorry officer, I meant a friend told me about doing it.

I find it interesting that a car like the old mini felt like you were going fast when you really weren't. Compared to modern times you can go fast and feel like you're going slowly it's that smooth. Perhaps we need to design into cars the sense of going fast. Say anything above 60mph rattles you around a lot and above 80mph you feel it's getting dangerous going so fast. A modern mini probably does a ton without you feeling it. Not like the old days when you needed a downhill to get to 70mph.

[kwackers]

Hi Kwackers , The Fiction part of "VW Diesel-Gate" was the data that that offered in the first place, blatantly fiddled process!
Thy knew that they were doing a very naughty thing, but their excuse was that "Others must certainly be doing the same thing". Would you buy a new car from men like that? I say "Men" as I don't believe it was done by members of the fair sex, (Antediluvian style comment) by an Oldie.
The entire E.U. Performance & Economy Testing Process is twisted & distorted, barely connected by real life, computer simulated fantasy!
I know nothing about the equivalent process for electric & hybrid vehicles, but I suspect that it will just as distorted .
The Bean Counters are running the industry as Ralph Nader would say . MM

Ignoring the illegality.

Have you ever considered why the performance and economy testing isn't "real life"?
In a nutshell there's simply no other way. You need a test cycle that's fixed in order to fairly compare one vehicle to another.
FWIW I've never had any trouble meeting the rated MPG of the cars I've owned and TBH I don't understand why others can't (well, that's not true I can see exactly why they can't. Most folk don't realise the brake pedal uses fuel. The less you press it the further it goes on a gallon.)

Electric vehicles are the same. The WLTP figures for range are usually about 10% optimistic for your average driver but can actually be reached once you realise that constant acceleration & braking plus insisting on doing 70 on the motorway rather than 60 with all it's accompanied changes in speed don't do the consumption any favours.

So fantasy? For some definitely but not all.
Ultimately though someone has to come up with a model for mixed driving which is consistent and can be applied fairly to all vehicles.
And if some sensible driving can achieve those numbers then I'm not sure what the problem is? (Hills and wind notwithstanding)

Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.

[landsurfer]

Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.

There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.

[kwackers]

There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.

What's stupid about the whole diesel gate thing is the problems have been known for a while, on this very forum some years ago there was a thread about diesel where I remember almost being alone in pointing out that in the real world diesels were horrifically bad. There was plenty of evidence from lots of independent sources showing this years before it became common knowledge.

I guess in a few years petrol and diesel will be just memories and so emissions will be removed from the hands of the vehicle manufacturers.
In the meantime the options for cheating are dwindling and the cost vs benefits probably a lot harder to justify.

I do wonder what the cost / benefit ratio of diesel gate was. I find it hard to believe VW would have lost so many sales from slightly worse performing engines that they'd be in profit after the billions they've lost fixing the issue plus the ongoing costs.

[Tangled Metal]

It's the small margins that probably matter. Slightly better = more sales = tangible benefits. It also probably added to the vw reputation too. Always thought vw group of companies were overrated. Always went Ford or Vauxhall but unlikely they're any better anyway. At least cheaper.

[Cugel]

Obviously if someone games the system (i.e. VW et al) then all bets are off but they've got (and are still getting) their bottoms smacked quite hard so I suspect there's not much incentive for anyone else to try it again.

There's massive commercial incentive, as a multi-national manufacturer VW are not sorry about what the've done .. only that they got caught.
They will continue to cheat to their advantage ... but ... they will now spend a fortune making it harder to catch them out.

In the corporate world its not the crime that is embarrassing .... it's being stupid enough to get caught.

Indeed. Modern business basically behaves in a fashion very similar to that of criminal gangs, in that they care not a jot who they hurt or even kill in order to get their dosh. Or what damage they do to a society and its institutions.

In fact, with many businesses the only difference between them and the criminal gang is that the gang bribes and otherwise suborns the legal system to look the other way whilst the big businesses bribe and suborn politicians to make laws that allow for their hugely damaging activities to become legal.

Both are despoilers and ravagers of life, in a variety of ways. Both are absolutely addicted to money. Both are essentially and fundamentally amoral.

Cugel

[Oldjohnw]

I see that young Greta Thunberg has declined he Nordic Environment Award along with the accompanying 500,000 Swedish Kroner because the Nordic countries are not doing enough.

Good on her. Unlike what some of the science denying press have claimed she is not in it for the money.

[reohn2]

Worth a listen:- https://youtu.be/Z7MFJ4EFezQ

[Oldjohnw]

And a new coalmine to open in Cumbria, celebrated by the local MP. Tory.

[Oldjohnw]

I see that the police branded this group initially as extremist, along with known terror groups. Thankfully, they stepped back.

Apparently, this was on the recommendation of the Policy Exchange think tank, a group to which many of the current government belong or belonged, and indeed was founded by Gove and Maude. The group has campaigned for dismantling the NHS, along with much more of the State.

This group is sponsored by some unpleasant and shady characters as well as various big business interests, including the Coal and Petrochemical industries.

Just saying.

[Cugel]

I see that the police branded this group initially as extremist, along with known terror groups. Thankfully, they stepped back.

Apparently, this was on the recommendation of the Policy Exchange think tank, a group to which many of the current government belong or belonged, and indeed was founded by Gove and Maude. The group has campaigned for dismantling the NHS, along with much more of the State.

This group is sponsored by some unpleasant and shady characters as well as various big business interests, including the Coal and Petrochemical industries.

Just saying.

Yeh but have you seen my shiny new car and my iThing? They are cool and this makes me ever-so admirable.

Those extincters better not slow me down when I'm driving my P&J to the gew-gaw shop!

Where can I buy an INEOS jersey?

Cugel, trying out "stupid consumer" mode.

[NUKe]

It is an extremist ideology, but that doesn’t make it wrong. To brand them terrorists would be wrong. I understand this has now been withdrawn. I do wish they would not target the trains and tube, they are the way to tackle climate change.