Extinction Rebellion

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reohn2
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby reohn2 » 17 Apr 2019, 10:42am

Up thread I posted this comment by a Londoner on facebook not involved in the protest:-
I believe in freedom of speech,but if I can't get to work it's costing me money

This seems to be at the forefront of people's minds.
What if as a result of these protests and the removal of many unnecessary vehicles from city roads freeing up road space for more buses and dare I say it bicycles he ended up getting to work quicker?

I see a parallel with workers striking,it's the last straw that causes a working wo/man to strike,because the striker loses pay,and disrupts society whilst risking wider society's condemnation as a result but if it's felt that striking is the only thing left then reluctantly workers will strike.

The country is being governed by the worst government I can think of in my adult life,(including Thatcher's,though her reign sowed the seeds of the present political shambles)it's only concern is remaining in power without responsibility to the people in the nation as a whole.
On the issue of pollution alone,it's attitude and stance is appalling,it removes help in the form of grants and subsidises to industry and individual alike to adopt greener energy,whilst at the same time building evermore roads for individual car owners to choke up,whilst paying lipservice to sustainable and public transport options.Building the HS2 whit elephant as local and cross country trains services are packed like sardines in a can for regular commuters and bus services(sic)are operated as a profit making venture and NOT as a service.
Cycling infrastructure? Forget it cyclists are just a nuisance not to even be consdered past a bit of paint and the occasional afterthought dedicated lane,with a police force so depleted as to be practically none existant and so run off there feet who can't chase up motoring crime,especially where cyclists are concerned,which is endemic.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Apr 2019, 10:59am

As you'd expect I disagree with you R2. :wink:

I don't see strikes are always being used as a last resort. Unions also have funds to support strikers too I believe. Whilst they're out of pocket when striking it's usually one day at a time and in some cases there will be overtime to catch up making the loss less significant. Or at least that's my cynical pov. You probably have the impression I'm no longer supportive of unions. :D

As to environmental protests. From the obviously biased media ( :wink:) it does seem there's a lot of the great unwashed, hippies and various groups who use any protest as a good opportunity for a bit of fight against the machine or anarchy. If not at the front they're usually somewhere up to mischief. Protests often have the anarchy types involved.

reohn2
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby reohn2 » 17 Apr 2019, 11:00am

Tangled Metal wrote:At work lighting is needed so it's mostly fluorescent tubes. Simple research shows there's energy efficient form of flood lighting that provides better quality / brightness light for less energy use. Very pricey compared to the tubes. Truth is comparing the two lighting types it's clearly cheaper over the lifetime to use the more expensive energy efficient lighting even when the advertised lifetime claims are wildly inaccurate.

There's plenty of energy saving solutions for industry but with a lot of businesses getting SMEs there may not be the budget or inclination or knowledge of potential options.

I often wonder whether money could be found to educate and assist SMEs to put in energy efficiency solutions. You get development areas, why not make energy efficiency in industry a development criteria / requirement? Targets, etc.

On top of that what is the benefit in subsidising domestic energy efficiency? Student loans are perhaps a good model for helping domestic efficiency drives. Loan the money for solar, ground source pumps, better insulation, etc. Some schemes have been put in which explains so many solar panels around these days.

We're considering moving house so are looking at houses for sale. What is interesting is how you really can't find a house in this area years got a better than C energy efficiency rating unless new builds. Even new builds aren't much better than that. Why can't we turn an E rated house into an A rated house? What is the implications of doing that? Can it be done? What effect would making every house and building at least C or B treated?

I like the idea of government low or zero interest loans to pay for solar panels.
Everytime I'm out either on the bike or in the car(yes I do own one and it's a diesel for anyone whose interested),I see lots of huge expanses on roof on cattle sheds,barns,indutrial units,and retail sheds such as B&Q,IKEA,etc crying out for solar panels that would reduce the draw on the national grid.
I also see streams of cars jammed up with one occupant per vehicle where a bus takes 50 odd people.......
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reohn2
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby reohn2 » 17 Apr 2019, 11:07am

Tangled Metal wrote:As you'd expect I disagree with you R2. :wink:

I don't see strikes are always being used as a last resort. Unions also have funds to support strikers too I believe. Whilst they're out of pocket when striking it's usually one day at a time and in some cases there will be overtime to catch up making the loss less significant. Or at least that's my cynical pov. You probably have the impression I'm no longer supportive of unions. :D

You haven't seen the effects a long strike has on workers have you?
After all they could simply go to work couldn't they?
But then you aren't them.

As to environmental protests. From the obviously biased media ( :wink:) it does seem there's a lot of the great unwashed, hippies and various groups who use any protest as a good opportunity for a bit of fight against the machine or anarchy. If not at the front they're usually somewhere up to mischief. Protests often have the anarchy types involved.

Amongst any group of protesters there'll be anarcists(sic) but the "obviously biased" media reports I've seen show pictures of seemingly ordinary people and surprisingly many my age(66) and older.Take a look here:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47959207
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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 11:10am

Tangled Metal wrote: Protests often have the anarchy types involved.

That's because they are anarchy types, I suppose.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Apr 2019, 11:26am

reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:As you'd expect I disagree with you R2. :wink:

I don't see strikes are always being used as a last resort. Unions also have funds to support strikers too I believe. Whilst they're out of pocket when striking it's usually one day at a time and in some cases there will be overtime to catch up making the loss less significant. Or at least that's my cynical pov. You probably have the impression I'm no longer supportive of unions. :D

You haven't seen the effects a long strike has on workers have you?
After all they could simply go to work couldn't they?
But then you aren't them.

Has there been a long strike recently?

They're mostly a series of one day strikes with a gap between which the cynic in me is to allow the strikers to get their overtime in. I think the last long strike (as in continuous) was the miner's strike. Teachers have had strikes but iirc they're usually single day strikes with gaps between each day strikes.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Apr 2019, 11:35am

The media does seem to show more ordinary types than the typical environment activist. Makes a change and perhaps that's a sign of a positive change to the environmental protest. Climate change has become more accepted and a higher priority issue for the wider population. That's positive IMHO, if it's left to the traditional types you see then it's not a good way to get this change.

BTW I remember the old days of road building protests in Lancashire, not too far from where I lived at the time. The infamous Swampy character seemed to be the look of such protests.

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 11:50am

Tangled Metal wrote:The media does seem to show more ordinary types than the typical environment activist. Makes a change and perhaps that's a sign of a positive change to the environmental protest. Climate change has become more accepted and a higher priority issue for the wider population. That's positive IMHO, if it's left to the traditional types you see then it's not a good way to get this change.

BTW I remember the old days of road building protests in Lancashire, not too far from where I lived at the time. The infamous Swampy character seemed to be the look of such protests.

At protest sites it is often the activists doing the uncomfortable tasks, fed and supported by the more 'respectable' locals. Locals, who may never have protested in their lives, are grateful to have an army of activists that is as much against the fracking, the new runway or the by-pass as they are.

Labrat
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Labrat » 17 Apr 2019, 11:58am

I must be getting old

I remember when the right to ‘protest’ and freedom of expression didn’t give you free licence to obstruct and disrupt other people’s lives, work and travel, smash things up or spray graffiti everywhere.

Personally I’d happily reintroduce the riot act - give them hour to disperse, then start cracking heads together.

reohn2
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby reohn2 » 17 Apr 2019, 12:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Has there been a long strike recently?

No there hasn't.But what does that matter on a thread about an environmental protest other than a strike being a protest,and my pointing to the similarities of the two?

They're mostly a series of one day strikes with a gap between which the cynic in me is to allow the strikers to get their overtime in. I think the last long strike (as in continuous) was the miner's strike. Teachers have had strikes but iirc they're usually single day strikes with gaps between each day strikes.

I doubt very much that striking workers strike to get some overtime in,and AFAICT teachers don't get paid overtime :?
As for the '84 miner's yes it probably was the last big strikenthe country has seen and striking miners suffered greatly because of it,think of it what you will but IMO they* were lions led by donkeys.


*I say they as in that strike I was in the safety Union NACODS and so didn't strike by agrement with the NUM to keep the mines safe for their return to work.
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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 12:06pm

Labrat wrote:I must be getting old

I remember when the right to ‘protest’ and freedom of expression didn’t give you free licence to obstruct and disrupt other people’s lives, work and travel, smash things up or spray graffiti everywhere.

Personally I’d happily reintroduce the riot act - give them hour to disperse, then start cracking heads together.

Yes, those damned suffragettes! obstructing and disrupting other people's lives. Physical violence should shut 'em up.

Why do you put protest in inverted commas? Do you think it isn't a protest?

thirdcrank
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Apr 2019, 12:14pm

Like many of us, I'm watching this at some distance. That's an important point, in that it's never been easier to get images to a wide audience. My impression is that compared with some other forms of action, the public may now be much more directly involved than is often the case. To take a recent example, demonstrators trying to obstruct the felling of trees in Sheffield didn't seem to have a big effect on daily life there. OTOH, I've just seen a pic of somebody reported to have glued themselves to the outside of a train. As a one-off that's quite a coup. If it is imitated, there will be cases of somebody glued to a train with a few hundred would-be travellers "stuck" in a different sense, who may not all be quite so supportive. Ditto widespread disruption of road traffic. We may see examples of people already stressed through all the day-to-day pressures of commuting being affected by the red mist.

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 12:23pm

thirdcrank wrote:OTOH, I've just seen a pic of somebody reported to have glued themselves to the outside of a train. As a one-off that's quite a coup. If it is imitated, there will be cases of somebody glued to a train with a few hundred would-be travellers "stuck" in a different sense, who may not all be quite so supportive. Ditto widespread disruption of road traffic. We may see examples of people already stressed through all the day-to-day pressures of commuting being affected by the red mist.

The disruption of public transport seems to me to be misdirected. Disruption of road traffic? It is only what London cabbies have been doing for months. And I'd argue that in their regular blockades of London Bridge, cabbies aren't acting as selflessly as environmental protesters.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Psamathe » 17 Apr 2019, 12:25pm

An unfortunate aspect of our society is that if you go to a remote corner and quietly hold up a banner nobody (and no press) will pay any attention to the issue you wish to raise.

Sometimes the issue can be more important than the inconvenience caused when the issue is raised (particularly if the issue is ignored). People who complain "I was delayed/inconvenienced" say more about themselves than anything else.

I've not been "inconvenienced" by this action but I was recently significantly "inconvenienced" - a 7 hr bus ride because a 17 hr bus ride when people protesting about local mining pollution decided to close the road for 3 days and my departing feeling was that I hoped the authorities would listen and pay attention and the "inconvenience" to me was trivial compared to the issued being raised.

Ian

Labrat
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Labrat » 17 Apr 2019, 12:30pm

bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:I must be getting old

I remember when the right to ‘protest’ and freedom of expression didn’t give you free licence to obstruct and disrupt other people’s lives, work and travel, smash things up or spray graffiti everywhere.

Personally I’d happily reintroduce the riot act - give them hour to disperse, then start cracking heads together.

Yes, those damned suffragettes! obstructing and disrupting other people's lives. Physical violence should shut 'em up.

Why do you put protest in inverted commas? Do you think it isn't a protest?


Yep, was all fun and games and jolly japes up until one of them went and got herself killed (If we ignore the arson and bombing bit)

However, there’s one key difference - they *didn't* have a vote. They didn’t hold a franchise as part of the democratic society surrounding them.

The climate protesters not only have a vote, but have the freedom to stand as a political party themselves.

That utterly undermines any justification for the type of terrorism you seek to defend