Extinction Rebellion

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philsknees
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby philsknees » 17 Apr 2019, 12:49pm

Just to respond to kwackers' comment upthread.
Yes I do have environmental concerns but they don't require me to support or condone pointless protests aimed at totally the wrong segments of our infrastructure and society.
Manipulating impressionable young kids to skip school in support of a ludicrously ill-directed demonstration which mainly affected susceptible and as I observed, often innocent parties, was irresponsible and pointless.
That is the basis of my lack of support for the questionable methods currently being adopted.
I'd like to think that this is the message we should be giving to our susceptible younger generation.
(Obviously my calming bike ride hasn't worked :cry:! )

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 12:50pm

Labrat wrote:That utterly undermines any justification for the type of terrorism you seek to defend

Calling it terrorism rather undermines your points.

But is your argument that, as we have a vote we are not entitled to protest?

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 12:54pm

philsknees wrote:...but they don't require me to support or condone

No, they don't. Fortunately, we are allowed to protest even in support of unpopular causes and misdirected ideals. [See cabbies, above]

kwackers
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby kwackers » 17 Apr 2019, 12:59pm

philsknees wrote:Just to respond to kwackers' comment upthread.
Yes I do have environmental concerns but they don't require me to support or condone pointless protests aimed at totally the wrong segments of our infrastructure and society.
Manipulating impressionable young kids to skip school in support of a ludicrously ill-directed demonstration which mainly affected susceptible and as I observed, often innocent parties, was irresponsible and pointless.
That is the basis of my lack of support for the questionable methods currently being adopted.
I'd like to think that this is the message we should be giving to our susceptible younger generation.
(Obviously my calming bike ride hasn't worked :cry:! )

The protests are aimed at government not at the people they're disrupting.
The disruption is part of the protest - squeaky wheel gets the grease sort of thing.

I'm not sure about the manipulation aspect, I was under the impression these protests where originally the brainchild of schoolchildren?

My view is the world is on the verge of a catastrophe so large that in comparison the amount of disruption is laughable.
Fortunately I'll be dead before it takes hold so it's up to the schoolchildren to deal with it. Looks like they've started early... ;)

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Cugel
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Cugel » 17 Apr 2019, 1:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:The media does seem to show more ordinary types than the typical environment activist. Makes a change and perhaps that's a sign of a positive change to the environmental protest. Climate change has become more accepted and a higher priority issue for the wider population. That's positive IMHO, if it's left to the traditional types you see then it's not a good way to get this change.

BTW I remember the old days of road building protests in Lancashire, not too far from where I lived at the time. The infamous Swampy character seemed to be the look of such protests.


Not very wise to judge an issue and associated protests by what some of the protestors look like, especially when their "look" is portrayed by the newspap organs of fear & loathing. What are the merits and demerits of the issue-perspectives; and of the protestors and their opponents? Often the opponents can become far more thuggish and nasty than any dressed-as-an-anarchist protestor-lad. Often the issue is one that's going to seriously affect us too, even if we can't be bothered to notice or do anything about it ourselves because it's "uncomfortable"

My own response to climate change is an attempt to do a bit about it as far as I can whilst also serving my own and entirely selfish economic interests. I managed to find and buy a house with ground source heating and solar panels, so the on-going carbon footprint is zero. DItto a different car, mostly run on electric rather than diesel so far less polluting and CO2-emitting than the previous diesel car. The running costs are far less than the traditional modes of house and car.

So it's possible to do this albeit not easy by any means. What are you willing to spend your money on? How long-term (and how widely) do you think about your spending and it's costs/benefits?

Many these days can't seem to get out of the mindset that everything must be judged by it's short term cash value. "The protest delays me getting to work and I've lost 3 hours pay". Such thinking is, I feel, a reflection of the shallow nature of our modern lives, with the snap-snap-snap of a cartoon scene change every few seconds. Few think beyond the next few days - at best.

Cugel
Last edited by Cugel on 17 Apr 2019, 1:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

Labrat
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Labrat » 17 Apr 2019, 1:03pm

bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:That utterly undermines any justification for the type of terrorism you seek to defend

Calling it terrorism rather undermines your points.

But is your argument that, as we have a vote we are not entitled to protest?


No, my point, throughout, has been that obstructing other people going about their lawful business, disrupting public transport systems & key infrastructure & blocking roads isn’t ‘protest’

Smashing up businesses and spraying graffiti everywhere in the name of a political objective isn’t ‘protest’ either

It’s domestic terrorism

Just the same as when the animal rights and far right nutters do it.

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Cugel
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Cugel » 17 Apr 2019, 1:13pm

Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:That utterly undermines any justification for the type of terrorism you seek to defend

Calling it terrorism rather undermines your points.

But is your argument that, as we have a vote we are not entitled to protest?


No, my point, throughout, has been that obstructing other people going about their lawful business, disrupting public transport systems & key infrastructure & blocking roads isn’t ‘protest’

It’s domestic terrorism

Just the same as when the animal rights and far right nutters do it.


I had a good look around for the nutters you mention but could only find one - a rodent going red & purple i' the gill about being obstructed by someone trying to save his grandchildren from extinction. :-)

Cugel, often inconvenienced by all sorts of other humans but used to this unavoidable state of affairs, like everyone else ... except a few nutters.

Psamathe
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Psamathe » 17 Apr 2019, 1:15pm

Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:That utterly undermines any justification for the type of terrorism you seek to defend

Calling it terrorism rather undermines your points.

But is your argument that, as we have a vote we are not entitled to protest?


No, my point, throughout, has been that obstructing other people going about their lawful business, disrupting public transport systems & key infrastructure & blocking roads isn’t ‘protest’

It’s domestic terrorism

Just the same as when the animal rights and far right nutters do it.

I'm sure that the anti-Iraq War protests obstructed some (maybe fewer but what is your threshold to start calling it "terrorism"?). So should we have banned the anti-Iraq War protests because a few might suffer inconvenience?

And if our politicians continue with their inaction and keep their heads in the sand then "obstructing people going about their lawful business" impact the world (rather than a few commuters) and todays "obstruction" will be trivial by comparison.

What about the Brexit protests (for both Leave and Remain) - quite sure then obstructed some people. And if we are classifying "Obstruction" as "Terrorism" then you need to have a chat with my local Council Highways Dept ....

Ian

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 1:55pm

Labrat wrote:It’s domestic terrorism

The usual term is 'domestic extremist' - a phrase May used a lot as Home Secretary. Many complained about how widely the definition was drawn, and May should have taken heed, as she's since formed a political alliance with such a group of extremists (exactly matching her definition).

Anyway, carry on using such terms for people who want to make a better world (albeit you think misguidedly). It dilutes the word terrorism to the point of meaninglessness.

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 2:02pm

Psamathe wrote:What about the Brexit protests (for both Leave and Remain) - quite sure then obstructed some people. And if we are classifying "Obstruction" as "Terrorism" then you need to have a chat with my local Council Highways Dept ....

Adding to your list: Royal weddings and funerals, Opening of Parliament, Remembrance Day events, The Olympics and other sporting events, street carnivals, development projects (these can shut down parts of cities for years)...

Labrat
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Labrat » 17 Apr 2019, 2:07pm

bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:It’s domestic terrorism

Anyway, carry on using such terms for people who want to make a better world (albeit you think misguidedly). It dilutes the word terrorism to the point of meaninglessness.


It’s the action that defines the definition, not the motivation.

Supporting, or opposing, particular actions on the basis of moral justification is a quick way into complete collapse of a multicultural society.

bovlomov wrote:Adding to your list: Royal weddings and funerals, Opening of Parliament, Remembrance Day events, The Olympics and other sporting events, street carnivals, development projects (these can shut down parts of cities for years)...


Yeah, except all the list are authorised events, subject to political decisions by elected representatives, all of whom are answerable to the electorate.

If the case for climate action was so strong, why are they demanding ‘rebellion’ rather than seeking change at the ballot box?

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 2:15pm

Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:It’s domestic terrorism

Anyway, carry on using such terms for people who want to make a better world (albeit you think misguidedly). It dilutes the word terrorism to the point of meaninglessness.



It’s the action that defines the definition, not the motivation.

Supporting, or opposing, particular actions on the basis of moral justification is a quick way into complete collapse of a multicultural society.

On the basis that they have neither been violent nor threatened violence, it is ridiculous to describe them as terrorists. I think the motivation is important too. They aren't agitating for personal gain, they are agitating for all of us, and have the overwhelming weight of science on their side.

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bovlomov
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby bovlomov » 17 Apr 2019, 2:20pm

Labrat wrote:If the case for climate action was so strong, why are they demanding ‘rebellion’ rather than seeking change at the ballot box?

Many do. It isn't either/or. Protests are as much a part of democracy as voting is - even for unpopular causes.

Don't forget - people who engage in civil disobedience know they are breaking the law and they are prepared to take the consequences. That's just as it should be.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Vorpal » 17 Apr 2019, 2:25pm

How should people protest, if isn't disruptive?

People have been increasingly concerned about the environment for many years. There has been increasing scientific consensus that we are either at, or reaching a crisis point.

If you don't believe that, fair enough, but it doens't make the people who do, domestic terrorists, and it isn't a moral issue. It's a societal issue.

When there is a long history of ignoring the concerns of a group, (Suffragettes, US Civil Rights movement, etc.), the only way to get noticed is generally some sort of disruption. How is that terrorism? Shall we call the Suffragettes terrorists?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Vorpal » 17 Apr 2019, 2:30pm

Labrat wrote:If the case for climate action was so strong, why are they demanding ‘rebellion’ rather than seeking change at the ballot box?

One of the perpetual issues in any society is that some people have the upper hand in one way or another. In the UK, that is determined by class and money. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but, as they say, 'money talks'. And someone with enough money can oppress or counter a great deal of information. Even if the case was absolutely rock solid for climate action, there is enough money invested in opposing it to silence many protestors.

In the UK, the US, and many other countries, it is not so much who has the strongest case, but who has the most money.

That may be why some folks see the need for rebellion. Voting has already failed them.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom