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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:34pm
by Labrat
bovlomov wrote:Don't forget - people who engage in civil disobedience know they are breaking the law and they are prepared to take the consequences. That's just as it should be.


Fine, sounds like we are agreed then - give them an hour and then start cracking some heads.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:35pm
by Labrat
Vorpal wrote:How should people protest, if isn't disruptive?

People have been increasingly concerned about the environment for many years. There has been increasing scientific consensus that we are either at, or reaching a crisis point.

If you don't believe that, fair enough, but it doens't make the people who do, domestic terrorists, and it isn't a moral issue. It's a societal issue.

When there is a long history of ignoring the concerns of a group, (Suffragettes, US Civil Rights movement, etc.), the only way to get noticed is generally some sort of disruption. How is that terrorism? Shall we call the Suffragettes terrorists?


No, because as already discussed, unlike the sufferagettes, they have the vote.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:40pm
by Tangled Metal
Cugel wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:The media does seem to show more ordinary types than the typical environment activist. Makes a change and perhaps that's a sign of a positive change to the environmental protest. Climate change has become more accepted and a higher priority issue for the wider population. That's positive IMHO, if it's left to the traditional types you see then it's not a good way to get this change.

BTW I remember the old days of road building protests in Lancashire, not too far from where I lived at the time. The infamous Swampy character seemed to be the look of such protests.

Not very wise to judge an issue and associated protests by what some of the protestors look like, especially when their "look" is portrayed by the newspap organs of fear & loathing.
Cugel

Not judging the issue by their look just commenting on how things have changed. Now there's suited and booted protesters glueing themselves to trains. Where a spokesman goes on the news wearing a suit, tie and air of middle class respectability but not so long ago got pinched for spraying a magistrates court or tory hq as a protest against Heathrow.

Back when I could have had the immature inclination that I could change the world the big protests near me were against road building and generally consisted of a lot of drop outs digging holes in the ground or living in trees. With the odd support of middle class NIMBYs supplying food parcels.

Just read a daily fail (first time for ages since someone on here linked to them) piece on the sky news interview of a ER spokesman. He got a bit of a hard time I believe. His presentation was about not standing for this, not standing for that then standing up and leaving when the interviewer said they were incompetent middle class self indulgent people.

I'm not judging the issue at all by them. The issue stands on its own merits very well and it's an issue I want action on too. I disagree with their methods though.

Also I will judge this group in any way I choose but especially for what they're doing. I think it's right to question methods to get change. Is their approach the right way. Parliament has left the building. I'm not even sure they'd be bothered by any difficulty for londoners getting around neither. It's just stunts and obstruction. Costly too I believe.

Personally I think there's probably mileage to take governments to court over climate and air pollution issues. With the Brexit / referendum issue and Gina Miller's court case there's a kind of model for confronting government through the courts but I'm no lawyer so could be wrong. For me protest like this is last resort and on some ways a sign of failure.

BTW I'm give you media of fear and loathing for the daily heil, certain leftwing publications and possibly torygraph too. Although even they can get some things right eventually.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:46pm
by al_yrpal
kwackers wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Better to publicise the way they themselves are living as an example to others.

How?

Truth is you'll get zero interest from anyone who has the ability to publish.
In truth such actions such as these will only alienate those so far removed they've no interest anyway.
But they'll apply some pressure on government so in that respect they'll have some effect.


How? Use the media. The minutiae of climate change protestors lives will make great TV and possibly persuade some others to follow and cause others to stop, think and possibly voluntarily change bad habits. After all we a showered with plenty of banal reality TV. Life of a climate change protester will be a welcome change. A popular change movement will be much more effective than an unpopular government stick. I would get Monboit on it...

There are lots of assertions on this subject but a shortage of real facts and statistics which the public can understand and relate to. Examining the lives of profligate Americans, the polluting poor of China and India would bring some balance to the subject too. The whole subject deserves a TV series.

Rather than cynical dismissal this worldwide looming problem needs positive exposure and action.

Al

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:48pm
by Tangled Metal
Reminds me of when I was a fresher and a third year student was showing me around. He showed its the society noticeboards and commented about the hunt sabs board with the comment "Join them if you like getting arrested every weekend".

Dismissive but we got talking about them. He had a friend involved with them. They travelled to a hunt in a minibus and got handed a business card for a solicitor who supports the cause and acts in their interests free of charge. Usually they got out on a Monday with a fine or caution.

I just wonder if the extinction rebellion are that organised? Are those arrested carrying solicitor's business cards? They seem reasonably prepared and organised for their protest (probably got coordination and seems to be using the tube free WiFi to get the directions out to the activists). Will those at the front line getting arrested have legal representation set up for them?

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 2:53pm
by bovlomov
Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Don't forget - people who engage in civil disobedience know they are breaking the law and they are prepared to take the consequences. That's just as it should be.


Fine, sounds like we are agreed then - give them an hour and then start cracking some heads.

Sounds like we don't agree.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 3:00pm
by kwackers
al_yrpal wrote:How? Use the media. The minutiae of climate change protestors lives will make great TV and possibly persuade some others to follow and cause others to stop, think and possibly voluntarily change bad habits. After all we a showered with plenty of banal reality TV. Life of a climate change protester will be a welcome change. A popular change movement will be much more effective than an unpopular government stick. I would get Monboit on it...

And your real world solution?

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 3:00pm
by Labrat
bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Don't forget - people who engage in civil disobedience know they are breaking the law and they are prepared to take the consequences. That's just as it should be.


Fine, sounds like we are agreed then - give them an hour and then start cracking some heads.

Sounds like we don't agree.


Oh, so you don’t really think they should accept the consequences for breaking the law after all then? Quelle surprise.

Personally, I’d happily apply rule 303

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 3:06pm
by bovlomov
Labrat wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Labrat wrote:
Fine, sounds like we are agreed then - give them an hour and then start cracking some heads.

Sounds like we don't agree.


Oh, so you don’t really think they should accept the consequences for breaking the law after all then? Quelle surprise.

Personally, I’d happily apply rule 303

The normal consequences of breaking the law don't include cracking heads.

Strangely, I don't support violence. You do.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 3:14pm
by Oldjohnw
Labrat wrote:
Vorpal wrote:How should people protest, if isn't disruptive?

People have been increasingly concerned about the environment for many years. There has been increasing scientific consensus that we are either at, or reaching a crisis point.

If you don't believe that, fair enough, but it doens't make the people who do, domestic terrorists, and it isn't a moral issue. It's a societal issue.

When there is a long history of ignoring the concerns of a group, (Suffragettes, US Civil Rights movement, etc.), the only way to get noticed is generally some sort of disruption. How is that terrorism? Shall we call the Suffragettes terrorists?


No, because as already discussed, unlike the sufferagettes, they have the vote.


1. The school protesters don't have a vote;
2. Yesterday I received my papers for the North of Tyne mayor. Only two parties out of five (Lib Dem and Lab) even mentioned the climate.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 4:09pm
by kwackers
Oldjohnw wrote:1. The school protesters don't have a vote;
2. Yesterday I received my papers for the North of Tyne mayor. Only two parties out of five (Lib Dem and Lab) even mentioned the climate.

Surprised?

Whatever the future, the climate wont have changed much for the duration of the mayor.

That's a fundamental problem with politics and long term goals - most parties simply don't have them.
You can of course do as I do and vote Green or some other such party but without proportional representation your vote is ignored.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 4:19pm
by Oldjohnw
kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:1. The school protesters don't have a vote;
2. Yesterday I received my papers for the North of Tyne mayor. Only two parties out of five (Lib Dem and Lab) even mentioned the climate.

Surprised?

Whatever the future, the climate wont have changed much for the duration of the mayor.

That's a fundamental problem with politics and long term goals - most parties simply don't have them.
You can of course do as I do and vote Green or some other such party but without proportional representation your vote is ignored.


I don't have the papers in front of me but I don't think there is a Green candidate. I will probably, for the first time ever, vote Labour as I suspect that they alone can keep the Tories out. I am not particularly comfortable with bring a tactical voter but sometimes needs must.

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 4:43pm
by NUKe
I am all for the protest, except I heard today they planned to target the tube. Surely public transport is the solution not the problem?

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 4:50pm
by reohn2
Vorpal wrote:.......In the UK, the US, and many other countries, it is not so much who has the strongest case, but who has the most money.

That may be why some folks see the need for rebellion. Voting has already failed them.

And that is the truth of it in a nutshell!

Re: Extinction Rebellion

Posted: 17 Apr 2019, 5:23pm
by irc
reohn2 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:.......In the UK, the US, and many other countries, it is not so much who has the strongest case, but who has the most money.

That may be why some folks see the need for rebellion. Voting has already failed them.

And that is the truth of it in a nutshell!


So can't convince the public by strength of argument so toys out the pram and block roads, trains etc. Not likely to help their case.

If they are happy to get locked up I think the police should lock up as many as required to clear the roads.
Want to protest? Go to a park or have a planned march.

As for their demand for Citizens Assemblies. We already have them. They are called parliaments
If their policies are popular enough they can get elected.

I won't hold my breath.