End of Pensioner "Perks"

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby roubaixtuesday » 25 Apr 2019, 9:26pm

Psamathe wrote:As the 5th largest economy in the world and with politicians continually declaring how well we are doing I don't accept it has to be an either/or situation. We can afford to do pensions and provide a sensible safety net for those in need. Of course to do that some companies would need to start paying some tax, some of the mega wealthy wll have to start paying tax, etc.

Ian


Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.

kwackers
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby kwackers » 25 Apr 2019, 9:49pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.

Those wealthy pensioners on £4 an hour are really taking the pee.

Psamathe
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Psamathe » 25 Apr 2019, 9:51pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Psamathe wrote:As the 5th largest economy in the world and with politicians continually declaring how well we are doing I don't accept it has to be an either/or situation. We can afford to do pensions and provide a sensible safety net for those in need. Of course to do that some companies would need to start paying some tax, some of the mega wealthy wll have to start paying tax, etc.

Ian


Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.

Very difficult to predict what will be happening in e.g. 40 years time. I don't think the state pension provides a level of ludicrous luxury. How does the minimum wage/living wage compare the the state pension?

Ian

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al_yrpal
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby al_yrpal » 25 Apr 2019, 9:53pm

slowster wrote:As individuals we have little to no control over any of this, and just have to play the cards we are dealt with. Neverthless, you can still look at the bigger picture and acknowledge that there is intergenerational unfairness, even if as individuals we lack any real power to change things.


Why do you believe its unfairness? That implies that earlier generations are treating the young unfairly. That is rubbish, there are always differences between generations. Why should each generation have a level opportunity playing field that older generations are powerless to create? My parents couldnt give me money they didnt have, they gave me opportunity. Young people today have opportunity in spades. Lance just gave an example of determination to get on that housing ladder, my son did a similar thing to his daughter. When I was young there were still long waiting lists for a council house.
What really irks my generation is that you and your mates make ridiculous accusations of selfishness that you cant substantiate when nothing is further from the truth.

Al
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hondated
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby hondated » 25 Apr 2019, 10:06pm

reohn2 wrote:Hondated
Thatcher bought a lot of votes with the sale of concil houses,I won't be dissuaded from that belief.

Don't disagree with you reohn2 and I met many of them campaigning for the Labour party. Unbelievable.

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Cugel
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Cugel » 25 Apr 2019, 10:06pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Psamathe wrote:As the 5th largest economy in the world and with politicians continually declaring how well we are doing I don't accept it has to be an either/or situation. We can afford to do pensions and provide a sensible safety net for those in need. Of course to do that some companies would need to start paying some tax, some of the mega wealthy wll have to start paying tax, etc.

Ian


Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.


So do I. But the answer isn't to stop funding the pensioner but to make people who can afford it do so. That is, the large greedy companies and the large greedy greedymen of every ilk & tittle, as mentioned by Psamathe

We all paid lots and lots of National Insurance and tax when we worked. The ladywife still does, often at 40%! I for one don't mind in the least, as I believe in government as a means (amongst other things) to arrange a civil society. This includes ensuring everyone in it can benefit from participating. Being a citizen.

At present, the young are being prevented from full participation - via many claims on their income, not just tax - in order to support not pensioners but greedymen: rentiers, banks, privatised infrastructure service company profiteers and shareholders..... They pay directly and also via a greater percentage of their income as tax than the percentage paid by many greedymen.

Anyroadup, I feel you are over-simplifying to imagine that the tax paid by young people is directly funding pensions. Tax is not water and it doesn't go into a pipe at one end then out at another. Tax is an exudation of wealth which is meant to operate as an emollient to maintain the health of society .... All of it. It needs to exude most from the densest wealth. After all, the wealthy benefit most from society, do they not? It's what enables them to become weallthy, amongst other things.

I never can grasp why anyone needs to be a billionaire, especially if it's all stashed in some offshore bank account. Some billionaires use their outrageous wealth to make more billions, by making and selling toxic dross, gambling in "the markets" or squeezing rents out of others. What's the point?

Cugel

roubaixtuesday
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby roubaixtuesday » 25 Apr 2019, 10:15pm

Cugel wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Psamathe wrote:As the 5th largest economy in the world and with politicians continually declaring how well we are doing I don't accept it has to be an either/or situation. We can afford to do pensions and provide a sensible safety net for those in need. Of course to do that some companies would need to start paying some tax, some of the mega wealthy wll have to start paying tax, etc.

Ian


Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.


So do I. But the answer isn't to stop funding the pensioner but to make people who can afford it do so. That is, the large greedy companies and the large greedy greedymen of every ilk & tittle, as mentioned by Psamathe

We all paid lots and lots of National Insurance and tax when we worked. The ladywife still does, often at 40%! I for one don't mind in the least, as I believe in government as a means (amongst other things) to arrange a civil society. This includes ensuring everyone in it can benefit from participating. Being a citizen.

At present, the young are being prevented from full participation - via many claims on their income, not just tax - in order to support not pensioners but greedymen: rentiers, banks, privatised infrastructure service company profiteers and shareholders..... They pay directly and also via a greater percentage of their income as tax than the percentage paid by many greedymen.

Anyroadup, I feel you are over-simplifying to imagine that the tax paid by young people is directly funding pensions. Tax is not water and it doesn't go into a pipe at one end then out at another. Tax is an exudation of wealth which is meant to operate as an emollient to maintain the health of society .... All of it. It needs to exude most from the densest wealth. After all, the wealthy benefit most from society, do they not? It's what enables them to become weallthy, amongst other things.

I never can grasp why anyone needs to be a billionaire, especially if it's all stashed in some offshore bank account. Some billionaires use their outrageous wealth to make more billions, by making and selling toxic dross, gambling in "the markets" or squeezing rents out of others. What's the point?

Cugel


I don't disagree with anything you say.

But it remains the case that there has been a huge shift in income, particularly since the financial crisis, from the young to the old. The latter have largely been unaffected. The former have had benefits slashed income slashed in real terms and additionally face a housing crisis (the drop in real incomes is unprecedented since Napoleonic times).

A double whammy of policy and demographics has left us, as I said above, with hundreds of thousands of families literally starved into accepting food charity. Often these people are working.

Meanwhile, the demographics of pensions mean the income of current pensioners is funded by a younger generation who will never get the same benefits themselves.

It is a shocking state of affairs.

Ben@Forest
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Ben@Forest » 25 Apr 2019, 10:23pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
It is true when housing costs are taken into account. A large percentage of pensioners own their house outright. Younger people don't and, as we know, the much younger can't even get get to buy a house.


What is "a large percentage", exactly? That's all very vague, sweeping, un-evidenced statement. Let's see so e hard figures, some nubers, ideally from an authoritative source.


https://www.pensionsage.com/pa/Almost-9 ... ty-ONS.php

Evidenced. But frankly you'd have to be living in a black box with your hands over your ears and shouting 'la la la' not to know this.

Psamathe
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Psamathe » 25 Apr 2019, 10:30pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Cugel wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Sure. But right now, young people are funding pensioners to have a retirement income at a level they have no hope of ever attaining. I think that's wrong.


So do I. But the answer isn't to stop funding the pensioner but to make people who can afford it do so. That is, the large greedy companies and the large greedy greedymen of every ilk & tittle, as mentioned by Psamathe

We all paid lots and lots of National Insurance and tax when we worked. The ladywife still does, often at 40%! I for one don't mind in the least, as I believe in government as a means (amongst other things) to arrange a civil society. This includes ensuring everyone in it can benefit from participating. Being a citizen.

At present, the young are being prevented from full participation - via many claims on their income, not just tax - in order to support not pensioners but greedymen: rentiers, banks, privatised infrastructure service company profiteers and shareholders..... They pay directly and also via a greater percentage of their income as tax than the percentage paid by many greedymen.

Anyroadup, I feel you are over-simplifying to imagine that the tax paid by young people is directly funding pensions. Tax is not water and it doesn't go into a pipe at one end then out at another. Tax is an exudation of wealth which is meant to operate as an emollient to maintain the health of society .... All of it. It needs to exude most from the densest wealth. After all, the wealthy benefit most from society, do they not? It's what enables them to become weallthy, amongst other things.

I never can grasp why anyone needs to be a billionaire, especially if it's all stashed in some offshore bank account. Some billionaires use their outrageous wealth to make more billions, by making and selling toxic dross, gambling in "the markets" or squeezing rents out of others. What's the point?

Cugel


I don't disagree with anything you say.

But it remains the case that there has been a huge shift in income, particularly since the financial crisis, from the young to the old. The latter have largely been unaffected. The former have had benefits slashed income slashed in real terms and additionally face a housing crisis (the drop in real incomes is unprecedented since Napoleonic times).

A double whammy of policy and demographics has left us, as I said above, with hundreds of thousands of families literally starved into accepting food charity. Often these people are working.

Meanwhile, the demographics of pensions mean the income of current pensioners is funded by a younger generation who will never get the same benefits themselves.
......

Impossible to say what todays youngsters will get when they reach retirement (far to far in the future and a lot of schemes are being put in place that were not available in my day).

I agree about things like "hundreds of thousands of families literally starved into accepting food charity. Often these people are working." but I don't see how pensioners can be blamed for that. It's the policy of our elected governments not pensioners causing this. We continue to let wealthy companies off tax bills, give tax breaks to the wealthy and to provide them all with plenty of loopholes. We put public money into daft private schemes (e.g PFI, hydrocarbon subsidies, etc.) where we should be spending it on more socially responsible things as you have highlighted.

Ian

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al_yrpal
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby al_yrpal » 25 Apr 2019, 10:52pm

What is surprising about older people owning more property, its what most people aspire to? Low interest rates drove people to invest in property when there were paltry returns on their savings. Property was seen as a safe haven and a good substitute for a pension. And then of course there is that deadly sin.....greed! The answer is discourage landlords, halt and reverse population growth and build more affordable houses quickly.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Tangled Metal
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Tangled Metal » 25 Apr 2019, 10:55pm

GFC didn't affect pensioners? Hmmm! Don't quite believe that. OK people on the verge of retirement had the values of their share based personal pensions slashed overnight. Then what about the retired people? Assume some had savings and pension pots, where were they? Well probably in share based funds. Don't you think that got reduced.

I knew a guy who was gradually winding down for retirement. By going part time by dropping another month or so every year from his working time he was preparing to finish except for perhaps one or two consults per year. GFC came and he dropped £50k from just one of his investments or pensions. He was seriously worried. He was 65 and had planned for retirement. He had helped his kid through to a point he was able to no longer need financial assistance. He had recovered from a divorce in middle age that decimated his money but the GFC was going to hit him hard.

Still, I'd like to have his problems when I'm his age.

I once read something about how we keep at 5th largest economy. Apparently gold is the key. London is the world's biggest depository of gold and sovereign gold. I can't remember the details but dodgy shenanigans are employed involving re-smelting (possibly under the guise of improving the grade). As a result it's classified as a transaction with the value of the gold. As I said I can't remember the details but it accounts for a significant part of the UK economy in these rankings. If you took them out the UK would probably drop to 8th or lower.

Just a point, size of economy is a bit misleading at times. There's probably smaller economies who have these issues better sorted than the UK.

slowster
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby slowster » 25 Apr 2019, 11:05pm

Psamathe wrote:It's the policy of our elected governments not pensioners causing this.

It's a bit like Adam Smith's 'unseen hand': pensioners and those about to reach pension age form a large percentage of the electorate, and the percentage of pensioners that vote in elections is higher than for other age groups. That inevitably results in political parties adopting policies which they believe will persuade pensioners to vote for them, e.g. the 'triple lock'.

roubaixtuesday wrote:But it remains the case that there has been a huge shift in income, particularly since the financial crisis, from the young to the old. The latter have largely been unaffected. The former have had benefits slashed income slashed in real terms and additionally face a housing crisis (the drop in real incomes is unprecedented since Napoleonic times).

I've heard it described as the biggest transfer of wealth from one group to another that has ever happened in human history. In order to preserve the value of (over inflated) assets, not least housing, billions were injected into the economy via Quantative Easing. Supposedly that was in the best interests of everyone overall, in order to prevent a complete economic crash, but I am sceptical.

If such a crash had occurred, it would have been the asset owners and the heavily indebted who would have lost out, which mainly would have been older generations and the very wealthy/those who had borrowed too much. If that had happened, the purchasing power of labour, i.e. paid work, would have hugely increased, and young people in ordinary jobs would have benefitted greatly from that. Something similar happened as a result of the Black Death in the 14th Century - so many people died that the value of assets fell (supply and demand), and ordinary people became much wealthier because the purchasing power of their labour was greater.

Ben@Forest
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Ben@Forest » 25 Apr 2019, 11:18pm

Psamathe wrote:qI agree about things like "hundreds of thousands of families literally starved into accepting food charity. Often these people are working." but I don't see how pensioners can be blamed for that. It's the policy of our elected governments not pensioners causing this.


It's not a case of pensioners causing it, or being blamed, however they have benefited from policies, conditions and circumstances that means many of them are leading lives their descendents will not lead. If there is an inequality surely efforts should be made to level it.

Two days ago l met someone who is very well off and very pleased they are about to turn 75 and will, apparently, be amongst the last tranche of people to get a free TV licence, and once granted it will not be rescinded. (I don't if that last bit is true or not but it's what he said ).

Whatever the outcome is it fair a rich 75 year old does not pay when a struggling 30-something couple with two kids do?

Psamathe
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby Psamathe » 25 Apr 2019, 11:37pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Psamathe wrote:qI agree about things like "hundreds of thousands of families literally starved into accepting food charity. Often these people are working." but I don't see how pensioners can be blamed for that. It's the policy of our elected governments not pensioners causing this.


It's not a case of pensioners causing it, or being blamed, however they have benefited from policies, conditions and circumstances that means many of them are leading lives their descendents will not lead. If there is an inequality surely efforts should be made to level it.
.....

I would probably question the reliability of predictions of pension income for current youngsters given they wont be retiring for 40'ish years. Financial predictions over those sorts of timescales must be unreliable. Particularly as the government is introducing private pension schemes that should be somewhat better than were in place in my day. We seem to be assuming a lot about how badly off todays 20 year olds will be in 45 years time!

We should not be thinking about dragging one group down but rather lifting other groups up.

Ian

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NUKe
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Re: End of Pensioner "Perks"

Postby NUKe » 25 Apr 2019, 11:44pm

pete75 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:It is notable that on this thread a considerable number of people who pontificate about the lives of others on other threads see their own approaches or lifestyles as 'right' here (honourable exceptions for oldjohnw and slowster).

Fact is the baby boomers (who are disproportionately represented in the Tea Shop) have had increasingly good lives - and their children or grandchildren won't. You can kick against it but it's the truth.



I see my lifestyle as neither right nor wrong it's just how it's developed over the years. I suspect most here feel the same so I'd question your first sentence.

Will my children and their children have better or worse lives - I don't know and neither do you. Who knows how
Most of the fuss/complaints appears to be about house prices. There's a simple answer. The relatively wealthy so called baby boomers buy their kids houses. That's what we're doing - they'd get the money anyway eventually so why shouldn't they have it now rather than struggle for some years and then become relatively wealthy through inheritance. Same goes for university fees - why not pay them for your kids instead of moaning about the things.
I'm what many of the oh so middle class posters on here will regard as working class scum so if I can afford it you lot certainly can. Don't be so bloody mean.

This is how the middle class keeps its self going and locks out the poor and why I fell out with Tory Blair, when he suggested a way round the housing crisis was to let parents put up the security for their children’s houses, these are the policies that keep the poor in their place. Similarly since Thatcher we have turned the rental sector over to private landlords. House prices are kept high by policies to protect middle England which see houses as part of their legacy to their children, we don’t like death duties cause their a tax on our children’s inheritance. We don’t like income tax cause it’s a tax on hard earned cash. So we expect the milenials to pay for there own education, work zero hours contracts then pay the rest in extortionate rents to private landlords who are supplementing their pension, they will have to work longer to look after us cause we want them to pay for our care, Don’t be surprised when they start calling for involuntary euthanasia
NUKe
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