Wedding presents

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Tangled Metal
Posts: 5403
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 May 2019, 9:44am

I object to the link of rights and benefits aimed at couples only applies to those who have gone through a formal ceremony that has its origins in a patriarchal society / culture / religion that personally I wish we could leave behind. Even civil ceremonies include elements derived from the past.

I object to the way politicians use the formal, married couple with kids as the basis of their ideology of the ideal family unit.

I simply do not believe any of the rights and responsibilities of a couple require a ceremony. At most I reckon it should be as simple as booking an appointment and filling out a form in front of a registrar exactly the way births are registered. Personally I do not believe there should be any significant perk for marriage such as tax benefits being shared. Taxation should be individual (assuming there is still some form of working partner taking some tax allowance from non working partner, but I'm not up on marriage tax perks so probably that went out the window years ago).

Of course if you want a more educated response to your question about my objections you would be better speaking to my partner. We share the same views on marriage but being an academic with knowledge of gender issues she could put together a more coherent argument than me. I'm educated but have never been good at putting my views across effectively.

One question I have is whether it's right that strongly held beliefs over marriage of the kind we have should result in issues in our family life such as paternal rights through reduced financial security for unmarried partners to issues surviving partners have due to not being married?

I have rights over decisions regarding our son because I wasn't busy at work and was allowed to leave early to register the birth of our son. If I hadn't turned up off have no parental decision making rights. It meant i was able to honestly complete the section of the A&E forms relating to parental responsibility when I took out son there for a medical issue. Without that the sister treaging him told me they'd have to delay treatment until a responsible adult came in. Scary thought not being listened to over matters of importance relating to our son and delayed medical treatment too.

So this issue isn't trivial and isn't about not paying the dues for a recovery service. It does need modernising and removing the requirement for formal marriage ceremony from a whole raft of topics relating to a family unit based around a couple who are not married.

drossall
Posts: 4489
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Wedding presents

Postby drossall » 10 May 2019, 10:20am

You seem to be recognising the value of at least some kind of formal declaration, if only to officialdom, whilst at the same time not wanting its absence to have any consequences? The other side, of course, is that the absence of any formal process opens up possibilities of claims by one party that the other (who may now even be deceased) would not support. So there has to be some way to know how things stand/stood, surely?

And given a need for a formal declaration, I'm saying that I think this new relationship affects family and friends as well, so why wouldn't I want to make it in front of them? Whereas you're happier with something more like form-filling in front of an official.

In fact, I think it's a really important thing even between the couple. Nothing's perfect, but at least there's a basis for knowing that you both have the same understanding of the relationship. Which for me is the starting point. And a bit of formality is no bad thing there too, as it's easy to say, or misunderstand, things in the heat of the moment.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5403
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 May 2019, 11:49am

The choice of having a party is up to the people involved but the official bit should not require it. Make it as simple or complex as you want but give the choice on that to the couple.

Right now there's a rigmarole to go through. I don't know what the process is but it's unnecessary to have much more than a quick form filling, ID checking and form signing. Registration of births process springs to mind. We spent more time sat in the waiting room than registering our sons birth. IIRC the birth registration didn't even need witnesses only us and the registrar. Simple, stress free and cheap (I'm sure there's enough father's up and down the country mixing pride with stress over the costs of their daughter's marriage).

With what I propose there would be an option for simple form filling (doesn't stop religious weddings or parties). IMHO the religious and party aspects are the optional extras to go alongside the basic form filling aspect IF the couple want it.

peetee
Posts: 1320
Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby peetee » 13 May 2019, 5:42pm

People that have to pay to attend functions are called customers, not guests.
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

brynpoeth
Posts: 10599
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Wedding presents

Postby brynpoeth » 13 May 2019, 5:51pm

I worked in cinema, we were told to call them guests :wink:
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

drossall
Posts: 4489
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Wedding presents

Postby drossall » 13 May 2019, 8:00pm

peetee wrote:People that have to pay to attend functions are called customers, not guests.

Yes but that's marketing-speak, always trying to stretch the meaning of words.

Postboxer
Posts: 1426
Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Postboxer » 13 May 2019, 9:35pm

I would love to see a graph of average marriage length or percentage of divorces against cost of weddings. It seems a lot of people are really excited to have a wedding but aren't too bothered or interested in the marriage part, so they rush into marriage so that they can have a wedding.

Think of the great weddings you have been to, do you remember or care what the invitation looked like, what the flowers looked like on the tables, whether you were served salmon or sausages, how long the firework display was? I think it's other things that make a wedding great, seeing old friends, meeting new people, having fun, feeling free to have fun, watching your kids run around and dance etc. There seems to be an increase in weddings where children aren't invited which causes problems for us as we don't have any babysitters local to us. The last wedding we went to was great, kids invited, balloon modeller, matching pairs game with prizes for the kids and some for adults which got people mixing and talking, laid back atmosphere, great speeches.

No-one's mentioned the increase in foreign trips for stag and hen dos, nor the increase in foreign weddings. Subscribers to the moneysavingexpert email will be familiar the the dilemmas at the bottom, many of which seem to be related to weddings, wedding presents and stag and hen dos, with people feeling pressured into spending beyond their means for trips they don't really want to go on, sacrificing their holiday days and money, often meaning they can't then go on their own holidays that year.

I think the cost of the present should take into account the cost attending the wedding has entailed, so if you have to travel far, get a hotel, fly, etc, people shouldn't expect large presents too.

mercalia
Posts: 10871
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Wedding presents

Postby mercalia » 13 May 2019, 9:41pm

just say No!

drossall
Posts: 4489
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Wedding presents

Postby drossall » 13 May 2019, 11:10pm

Postboxer wrote:No-one's mentioned the increase in foreign trips for stag and hen dos, nor the increase in foreign weddings.

That's what I meant about the importance (to us) of having a wedding somewhere accessible to family and friends.

peetee
Posts: 1320
Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby peetee » 14 May 2019, 9:25am

drossall wrote:
peetee wrote:People that have to pay to attend functions are called customers, not guests.

Yes but that's marketing-speak, always trying to stretch the meaning of words.


I was more making the point that paying to attend a wedding does not, in my book, fit with the concept of being invited. Friends and family are 'invited to attend' not offered the opportunity to 'purchace a place at'.
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1519
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 May 2019, 1:44pm

I have decided (I am the OP) that out of affection for my niece I will make a gift of money but make it clear that it is not to be spent on a long distance flight.

I have no doubt that I will be branded a grumpy miserable killjoy but I am old enough and thick skinned enough to live with that. With a bit of luck I will be missed off future invitations.

Anyway, I am right!

My wife and I still take pleasure in remembering the modest gifts we were given. I doubt my niece will know much about her gifts in years to come. I am still of the view that they want an expensive holiday paid for by other people.

But then, I am an old cynic.
John

Cycling and recycling

Vorpal
Moderator
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Vorpal » 14 May 2019, 2:27pm

I broadly agree with Tangled Metal.

Marriage is an optional ceremony. However, I also think that legal aspects of partnerships & families could be separately declared. There are clear benefits to clarifying some things, but there may be different needs for different folks, and the process should be simple and clear, not requiring a lawyer or will & testament. A few of the things declarations should cover:
-partner benefits and responsibilities (i.e. if one member of a family should die, fall critically ill, become disabled, etc.)
-care of dependents and carer rights
-shared property

Beyond that, families are, and should be legally allowed to be diverse. As far as I am concerned, the people involved get to decide if they are a family, and that includes multiple partners, co-parenting and whatever else people want to do.

I've known a few people who began unusal arrangements for economic reasons, or other necessity, and continued them because they worked well for the family. Examples are
1) a friend who couldn't afford to move out when she split with her boyfriend; she moved into her own room, and they continued to share a house, & parenting for their two kids. A couple of years later, his new girlfriend and her two kids moved in. Everyone (mostly) got on well, and they slowly integrated into a large family, even though my friend was dating, and occasionally in relationships outside the 'family'.
2) two women who moved in together to share resources & parenting together. Even though they were not in a romantic relationship, they eventually registered as partners, so that they could receive benefits as partners, obtain shared council housing, and have some parental rights for each others' children.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5403
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 May 2019, 6:57pm

IMHO the most dangerous aspect of current situation is how a father does not get parental responsibility if he's not married to the mother unless he is named on the birth certificate and present at the registration of birth. What on earth has parental responsibility got to do with a marriage ceremony?

If you don't believe that's dangerous then I give you my example of when we took our son to hospital A&E. Treage and the information we had to give the sister included parental responsibility. When we asked what she meant we got it explained from a medical / law pov. She asked if I was present at the registration of birth. It was quiet at work and I was able to leave work to be there. If busy I wouldn't have been there. That would theoretically mean I could not make parental decisions regarding my sons treatment if his mother (my partner who's not married to me) was my present.

brynpoeth
Posts: 10599
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Wedding presents

Postby brynpoeth » 14 May 2019, 6:58pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I have decided (I am the OP) that out of affection for my niece I will make a gift of money but make it clear that it is not to be spent on a long distance flight.

I have no doubt that I will be branded a grumpy miserable killjoy but I am old enough and thick skinned enough to live with that. With a bit of luck I will be missed off future invitations.

Anyway, I am right!

My wife and I still take pleasure in remembering the modest gifts we were given. I doubt my niece will know much about her gifts in years to come. I am still of the view that they want an expensive holiday paid for by other people.

But then, I am an old cynic.

Plus One, are you a curmudgeon like me?
..
For travel, one may reach enough interesting strange places by train, I plan holidays in Belgium, Austria, maybe even Scotland :wink:
No need to fly
pwa I think mentioned someone who had been to NZ and thought it was rather like Wales :?
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1519
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Wedding presents

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 May 2019, 12:34am

brynpoeth wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I have decided (I am the OP) that out of affection for my niece I will make a gift of money but make it clear that it is not to be spent on a long distance flight.

I have no doubt that I will be branded a grumpy miserable killjoy but I am old enough and thick skinned enough to live with that. With a bit of luck I will be missed off future invitations.

Anyway, I am right!

My wife and I still take pleasure in remembering the modest gifts we were given. I doubt my niece will know much about her gifts in years to come. I am still of the view that they want an expensive holiday paid for by other people.

But then, I am an old cynic.

Plus One, are you a curmudgeon like me?
..
For travel, one may reach enough interesting strange places by train, I plan holidays in Belgium, Austria, maybe even Scotland :wink:
No need to fly
pwa I think mentioned someone who had been to NZ and thought it was rather like Wales :?


I think I probably am a curmudgeon but I am am a green one. The Young couple in question go to New York for Christmas shopping, Thailand for a short break and Egypt for summer hols. I consider their behaviour irresponsible and am not inclined to support it. It isn't like they aren't getting a present. And Oh the irony, he is an energy engineer.
John

Cycling and recycling