New thread for the inuction hob drift - phasing out gas

[rmurphy195]

It will be difficult to phase out gas - as for the CH boiler thing, I imagine that electric radiators with built-in timers and thermostats would replace the complete wet system, and provide additional benefits.(Hot water would be provided by individual heaters on the taps). Something I had thought of for our new home but elected to have the old floor-mounted boiler (along with its hot-water tank) replaced with a modern, relatively-efficient compact combo boiler instead.

The whole question of a move to "cleaner electricity" in the home and for transport is suspect due to the infrastructure needs and generation capacity/methods. Unless we use nuclear power and/or have vastly more efficient solar cells and power transmission and storage media, it's difficult for me to see how it would all work without simply shifting the pollution problem from our cities onto someone else, even if we did bury ourselves under solar cells, and cover the country with wind generators destroying all our bird life (along with everyone else's due to blocking of migratory paths) in the process.

[mjr]

Why electric radiators rather than underfloor if we're going to have upheaval anyway?

And aren't windmills killing birds an urban myth? Have the fens and Netherlands been bereft of birds since the 1600s?

[roubaixtuesday]

The technology for domestic heating and hot water with electricity is the heat pump.

Ideally "ground source" but also possible "air source" they work on the principle of air conditioners, but in reverse, "pumping" heat across a small temperature difference.

They provide a lot more energy than they consume, typical 3x as much - known as the "coefficient of performance"

In terms of how to generate the electricity without fossil fuels, the late great David Mackay's book "without hot air" (available online) lays out the options excellently. In broad terms, wind, nuclear and imported are the main options.

If you prefer non- nuclear, the centre for alternative technology has an excellent and realistic analysis (realism is in short supply in this field) called "zero carbon Britain". In their vision we all go vegan, power the country on wind and store biogas for calm periods. Jeremy Corbyn's energy policy seems to be based on this, but without mentioning the unpalatable parts.

[rjb]

Holland have already started down this road so we will have 6 years of experience to call upon when we start. As for home heating i believe we will still have a wet radiator system but heated by an external heat pump. This only provides low grade heat so radiators will not be as hot as current gas heating systems, so insulation will be key. Electricity consumption will increase as demand for transport, both road and rail, domestic and industrial consumption grows. Smart meters will help to some extent as car batteries will be switched from charging to supply mode at times of high demand. Can we rely upon continental interconnectors to supply our needs, i dont think so as they may well not have sufficient to spare and may well be calling on our wind energy as we are in the windiest place in europe.

[rmurphy195]

Why electric radiators rather than underfloor if we're going to have upheaval anyway?

And aren't windmills killing birds an urban myth? Have the fens and Netherlands been bereft of birds since the 1600s?

In my case the electric rad would plug into an existing 13amp socket, and would require nothing more than a couple of brackets on the wall, no need to dig-up floors which would be tricky in any case for a biulding with concrete flooring.

Wind turbines are much taller than the windmills used for milling, water pumping etc. and I suspect may be needed in far greater numbers!

I'm not sure if it was Magnus Pyke or Donald Carr who proposed having giant solar plants off the equatorial coastlines producing Hydrogen and Oxygen by electolysis. The hydrogen could then be pumped to wherever it was needed to be burnt-off to produce energy, and a by-product useful in all sorts of places - Water, of which the fresh variety is much needed in all sorts of places (the original idea was to provide irrigation water for deserts)

[rjb]

In my case the electric rad would plug into an existing 13amp socket, and would require nothing more than a couple of brackets on the wall, no need to dig-up floors which would be tricky in any case for a biulding with concrete flooring.

you cant do this in your bathroom

[Lance Dopestrong]

Gas. I'll be gone before the gas is, although I tend to hear the house with wood anyway.

[Oldjohnw]

Gas. I'll be gone before the gas is, although I tend to hear the house with wood anyway.

Yep, gas is silent. A wood fire sparks and crackles.

[Lance Dopestrong]

Indeed, Sir! Well observed typo

And it's free, as I spend the warmer months foraging. Carbon neutral too. But then it creates a particulate problem. Ying and yang.

[rmurphy195]

Indeed, Sir! Well observed typo

And it's free, as I spend the warmer months foraging. Carbon neutral too. But then it creates a particulate problem. Ying and yang.

There's a but - which I didn't realise existed until I visited a Canadian forest visitor centre.

There I learnt that, in the natural course of events, young tree starts its growth on rotting old tree trunk, gets too big, dies, falls over, rots, and provides base for new trees to grow on.

But if there's no wood rotting away in the forest, it all gets a bit upset!

[Mick F]

In my case the electric rad would plug into an existing 13amp socket, and would require nothing more than a couple of brackets on the wall, no need to dig-up floors which would be tricky in any case for a biulding with concrete flooring.

you cant do this in your bathroom

Yes you can. It's just the UK building regs that stop you.
Go to France or Spain, and they have mains sockets in the bathrooms. No doubt other countries too.

[philvantwo]

You can have a socket in a bathroom, it has to be at least 3 metres away from the bath or shower. When I was a kid we had a one bar electric heater up on the wall!!

[al_yrpal]

Phasing out gas and going electric on road vehicles is a double whammy. Cant imagine how we can generate enough power to cope with this. Heat pumps need a small amount of electric power. The nuke timescales seem to get longer and longer. Still, its good to set targets even if there is no feasible plan to achieve them.

Al

[Pastychomper]

Indeed, Sir! Well observed typo

And it's free, as I spend the warmer months foraging. Carbon neutral too. But then it creates a particulate problem. Ying and yang.

The particulate level depends on the type of stove used for burning, I've yet to see a fully smokeless one but I have been impressed how little smoke is produced by some "wood-gas" type stoves. Having seen some depressingly smokey gas fires, I wonder how much worse wood really is.

There's a but - which I didn't realise existed until I visited a Canadian forest visitor centre.

There I learnt that, in the natural course of events, young tree starts its growth on rotting old tree trunk, gets too big, dies, falls over, rots, and provides base for new trees to grow on.

But if there's no wood rotting away in the forest, it all gets a bit upset!

That's a good point. Otoh, since the vast majority of any tree is made of carbon dioxide and water it shouldn't take too much energy to provide sufficent fertilisers to redress the balance. Imagine if the vehicles hauling wood to the fires were also used to haul the ashes (possibly topped up with some of the urine that most of us pay to have taken away*) in the opposite direction.


*I was referring to sewage pipes and treatment, but I dare say other meanings could be applied.

[Lance Dopestrong]

Phasing out gas and going electric on road vehicles is a double whammy. Cant imagine how we can generate enough power to cope with this. Heat pumps need a small amount of electric power. The nuke timescales seem to get longer and longer. Still, its good to set targets even if there is no feasible plan to achieve them.

Al

Going electric on road vehicles isn't the panacea people think it is. Even jf there were enough rare earth metals to make the batteries and electronics to replace every internal combustion car like for like with an electric one (which there isnt by a huge margin), it can't be dug out the ground quick enough to expand production to do so within a meaningful timescale.

Electric vehicles represent more of a diversion, an eye off the ball solution. The ultimate end game is going to be massive reductions in the number of motorised vehicles in private ownership at all, simply because it's impossible to manufacture enough without the necessary materials. Then and only then, we'll see the real shift - public transport, on demand vehicle sharing, cycling/assisted bicycles, that is the real long term future for the average Joe, not oevery individual owning an electric car each as we would with ICE cars today. It's not far off, 25 or 30 years, within our lifetimes for most of use.