Cycling UK Forum

mjr wrote: Oh well, at least this incident has educated you that calling a quarter-African-American (IIRC) child a monkey might be considered racist!

...

Indeed it has, and more to the point it's told me if I ever find myself in the public eye I'd better start paying attention to people's melanin levels. I'd certainly seen pictures of young Archie's mother before, but she was filed in my head under "American, Royal (spouse), Former Actress". I didn't make the race connection until it was spelled out in the article.

Pastychomper wrote:

mjr wrote: Oh well, at least this incident has educated you that calling a quarter-African-American (IIRC) child a monkey might be considered racist!

...

Indeed it has, and more to the point it's told me if I ever find myself in the public eye I'd better start paying attention to people's melanin levels. I'd certainly seen pictures of young Archie's mother before, but she was filed in my head under "American, Royal (spouse), Former Actress". I didn't make the race connection until it was spelled out in the article.

Or you could just apologise if you gaffe, rather than keep saying it's only a joke and insulting those who pointed it out.

mjr, I don't know what you wanted the guy to do. Here's what he wrote:
“Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased.

“Soon as those good enough to point out it’s possible connotations got in touch, down it came*. And that’s it.”

<*he deleted the tweet>

So it's clear to me that everything that followed is down to people like you _choosing_ to stir things up further. (presumably to score woke points, I don't know). Why not just leave it there?

mattheus wrote:mjr, I don't know what you wanted the guy to do. Here's what he wrote:
“Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased.

“Soon as those good enough to point out it’s possible connotations got in touch, down it came*. And that’s it.”

<*he deleted the tweet>

So it's clear to me that everything that followed is down to people like you _choosing_ to stir things up further. (presumably to score woke points, I don't know). Why not just leave it there?

Except that he said more than you have quoted. eg In the stuff I've seen attributed to DB over this he was criticising BBC "suits." I'm not going to go for a slo-mo replay, not least because I'm not on twitter, but IMO he's been offensive when he should have known what the implications were and if he didn't he's too slow-witted for a job needing quick wits.

I imagine the chimp as a child idea was based on the traditional notion that the royals are inbred, which is itself a bit bigoted but we have tolerated that line of banter because the group it picks on are in other ways privileged.

But Baker was not thinking clearly or he would have seen the "black person=monkey" interpretation, which I very much doubt is what he intended. Perils of the internet. Think of something, put it out there, then think again and wish you had thought more clearly before pressing the button. He is a professional, though, and should be more careful than that.

Is it a problem that we are calling an ape a monkey?

pwa wrote:Is it a problem that we are calling an ape a monkey?

That crossed my mind too. An issue over the genera of the primate used? The idea that if he'd used a photo of an ape species it would have been better amused me but I still thought it was wrong.

And I suspect that a fair few people have been speculating that the child would be black. If this child has siblings, they may well be black. So what? Particularly in DB's area of "expertise" - soccer - the racist taunts based on the monkey theme are so common it would be difficult to be unaware of them. I'm not suggesting it's impossible. After the recent international away to Montenegro, their coach Ljubisa Tumbakovic was reported as saying he "didn't notice" abuse which has led to his team being ordered to play a match in an empty stadium.

The point has been made by some of the players in our national team who have been the target of this that it is widespread in this country and not only abroad. I've seen something in the last few days reporting that junior players get this as well.

I don't think it's being over-sensitive, PC or whatever, to suggest that the countless soccer pundits - especially those on the public payroll - should at least be alert to this and preferably set an example.

thirdcrank wrote:

mattheus wrote:mjr, I don't know what you wanted the guy to do. Here's what he wrote:
“Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased.

“Soon as those good enough to point out it’s possible connotations got in touch, down it came*. And that’s it.”

<*he deleted the tweet>

So it's clear to me that everything that followed is down to people like you _choosing_ to stir things up further. (presumably to score woke points, I don't know). Why not just leave it there?

Except that he said more than you have quoted. eg In the stuff I've seen attributed to DB over this he was criticising BBC "suits." I'm not going to go for a slo-mo replay, not least because I'm not on twitter, but IMO he's been offensive when he should have known what the implications were and if he didn't he's too slow-witted for a job needing quick wits.

You could do some VERY simple research to get your facts straight. But here you go: https://twitter.com/prodnose
I think he only posted 5-6 quite short tweets yesterday. Most of them are mouthing off about the BBC or other media channels - is that racist? Or illegal.

You're bandwagon-jumping - there, I've judged you

[If you do read that twitter link, you'll find some new stuff from him since 9am. He's even more apologetic - but will that satisfy thirdcrank et al??)

I can honestly say that the racial mix of the mother or the child have not been occupying 1% of what few thoughts I have had on them.

pwa wrote:I imagine the chimp as a child idea was based on the traditional notion that the royals are inbred, which is itself a bit bigoted but we have tolerated that line of banter because the group it picks on are in other ways privileged.

But Baker was not thinking clearly or he would have seen the "black person=monkey" interpretation, which I very much doubt is what he intended. Perils of the internet. Think of something, put it out there, then think again and wish you had thought more clearly before pressing the button. He is a professional, though, and should be more careful than that.

Is it a problem that we are calling an ape a monkey?

Are you defenders of the creature so naive? Baker knew exactly what he was saying and it's implications, context and likely effects. He was, as he has often done before, appealing to "the lads" with his mainsteam "lookitme, a proper footbal fan" schtick.

Now he has the publicity he craves, enhancing his footie-boy image. He will have another lucrative job soon, perhaps with one of the various right-wing newspap rags or other such media horns.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could just be very stupid. Ha!

Cugel

mattheus wrote:

pete75 wrote:He doesn't help his case by inferring that anyone who points out racism is mentally ill.

Er .. no. It's YOU that has inferred this. You should probably get a dictionary before joining in the next indignation flash-mob my friend!

The inference from him saying racial connotations "never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased" is that he regards anyone who did see it as racist and said the same had a "diseased mind" ie is mentally ill.

Cugel wrote:Are you defenders of the creature so naive? Baker knew exactly what he was saying and it's implications, context and likely effects. He was, as he has often done before, appealing to "the lads" with his mainsteam "lookitme, a proper footbal fan" schtick.

Now he has the publicity he craves, enhancing his footie-boy image. He will have another lucrative job soon, perhaps with one of the various right-wing newspap rags or other such media horns.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could just be very stupid. Ha!

Cugel

All you're showing here is how little you know about the man. He displays no such schtick.

Go and actually listen to the man; here is 2-hours of his output (available every week for several years)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00mjjxr

Some weeks there isn't a single football mention (despite his deep love of the game)- but there will be plenty about humorous pets and the like. Enjoy!

We do agree about one thing Mr Cugel - he will be gainfully employed soon enough. I look forward to hearing his entertaining ramblings on a diversity of subjects

Re the band wagon, I think I was one of the first on here to make the soccer pundit connection. I'd have left it at that but criticising others and then suggesting everybody else should move on isn't the best way to draw a line under anything.

I'm not outraged by this at all. I didn't intend to outrage anybody else either, so I'm surprised that I seem to have touched some raw nerves.

Cugel wrote:

pwa wrote:I imagine the chimp as a child idea was based on the traditional notion that the royals are inbred, which is itself a bit bigoted but we have tolerated that line of banter because the group it picks on are in other ways privileged.

But Baker was not thinking clearly or he would have seen the "black person=monkey" interpretation, which I very much doubt is what he intended. Perils of the internet. Think of something, put it out there, then think again and wish you had thought more clearly before pressing the button. He is a professional, though, and should be more careful than that.

Is it a problem that we are calling an ape a monkey?

Are you defenders of the creature so naive? Baker knew exactly what he was saying and it's implications, context and likely effects. He was, as he has often done before, appealing to "the lads" with his mainsteam "lookitme, a proper footbal fan" schtick.

Now he has the publicity he craves, enhancing his footie-boy image. He will have another lucrative job soon, perhaps with one of the various right-wing newspap rags or other such media horns.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could just be very stupid. Ha!

Cugel

I see him as someone who has made a daft mistake, you see him as a racist. I could be wrong and you could be right, but you seem to have listened to more of his output than me. Have you any specific examples of racism in things he has said in the past? Or is it just that he is associated with football and you associate football with racism? I know there is racism in football, but there is also anti-racism.

mattheus wrote:mjr, I don't know what you wanted the guy to do. Here's what he wrote:
“Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased.

“Soon as those good enough to point out it’s possible connotations got in touch, down it came*. And that’s it.”

<*he deleted the tweet>

So it's clear to me that everything that followed is down to people like you _choosing_ to stir things up further. (presumably to score woke points, I don't know). Why not just leave it there?

People like me?!?! Just because I can see how it can be considered racist (I was a football fan in the 1980s...), that Danny Baker should have seen it coming and that still defending it as a "gag pic", still equating the child with the chimp and then doubling-down by calling one's accusers "diseased" is not a good apology or going to get anyone to "leave it there"? I think he should have apologised simply and left it there - no continued defence of the indefensible and no trolling those who pointed it out.

If I make the same assumptions about you, based solely on your continued defence of it, you must be the kind of person who enjoys lazy racist "bantz" - is that right? Could you even read that without thinking "razy lacist"?

He trolled, twice, presumably hoping to get some attention, and lost his job.

And what on earth is a "woke point" in plain English? http://www.wokepoint.com looks half-finished ("Add custom text..." in the menu).