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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 11:15am
by Bonefishblues
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
I think this is the wrong analogy. Let's suppose a posse of police were to be on a street, stopping everybody and requiring them to prove their ID to check if they were - in a general sense - of interest to the police. The fact that some might not consent to this isn't - in any legal sense - suspicious.

This is similar to the debate about ID cards.

The guy was making an active show of his non-compliance and being filmed doing so - there was an element of cause celebre about it, I thought, but yes, I agree, we need some greater clarity about the extent of our privacy.

Perhaps it is now time for a Bill of Rights to enshrine them.


I dont think it is illegal to wear some thing over your face in public ( hence the gear that muslim women wear) so the police should have no presumption that you are a crook and need investigating? maybe you are just a odd person or some one famous ( they have been known to put on a disguise?) or just ugly, dont like your looks?

I think my point was that he was very obviously (and publicly) actively avoiding it, hence the suspicion as to his motives. It's the sort of to-and-fro we can continue, our even interchanging sides, I suspect, but with the onset of this tech I do think there's a significant grey area that needs resolution.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 11:42am
by mercalia
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:The guy was making an active show of his non-compliance and being filmed doing so - there was an element of cause celebre about it, I thought, but yes, I agree, we need some greater clarity about the extent of our privacy.

Perhaps it is now time for a Bill of Rights to enshrine them.


I dont think it is illegal to wear some thing over your face in public ( hence the gear that muslim women wear) so the police should have no presumption that you are a crook and need investigating? maybe you are just a odd person or some one famous ( they have been known to put on a disguise?) or just ugly, dont like your looks?

I think my point was that he was very obviously (and publicly) actively avoiding it, hence the suspicion as to his motives. It's the sort of to-and-fro we can continue, our even interchanging sides, I suspect, but with the onset of this tech I do think there's a significant grey area that needs resolution.


I would have thought that since it was so public his motives were quite clear and not crooked. The police handled it very badly, in fact incompetant and there should be a reprimand. The police can be given special powers to stop and search ( eg the spate of knife attacks ) but in general they cant interfer with people going about their lawful business or harass them? The guy was responding to a situation they had created, he was being provoked. I hope the guy gets legal council and challenges it

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 12:04pm
by Bonefishblues
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
I dont think it is illegal to wear some thing over your face in public ( hence the gear that muslim women wear) so the police should have no presumption that you are a crook and need investigating? maybe you are just a odd person or some one famous ( they have been known to put on a disguise?) or just ugly, dont like your looks?

I think my point was that he was very obviously (and publicly) actively avoiding it, hence the suspicion as to his motives. It's the sort of to-and-fro we can continue, our even interchanging sides, I suspect, but with the onset of this tech I do think there's a significant grey area that needs resolution.


I would have thought that since it was so public his motives were quite clear and not crooked. The police handled it very badly, in fact incompetant and there should be a reprimand. The police can be given special powers to stop and search ( eg the spate of knife attacks ) but in general they cant interfer with people going about their lawful business or harass them? The guy was responding to a situation they had created, he was being provoked. I hope the guy gets legal council and challenges it

...and that's the nub of it, isn't it, the ambiguities can be argued by Counsel of either side, which is why I think we've reached a point where we need some clarification.

It's never a good policy to tell the police to eff off though...

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 12:09pm
by Lance Dopestrong
It has the potential to bring great benefit, and the potential to be badly misused. As I retired copper I wouldn't want to see it used without some rigorous and specific legislation governing its use, and for the technology to mature much, much more than it is at present.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 12:13pm
by Bonefishblues
I agree - and for the procurement process to be a bit more sophisticated than it often is in the Public Sector, such that a tech that actually works gets bought, not the least-cost solution.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 12:37pm
by hondated
Lance Dopestrong wrote:It has the potential to bring great benefit, and the potential to be badly misused. As I retired copper I wouldn't want to see it used without some rigorous and specific legislation governing its use, and for the technology to mature much, much more than it is at present.

Seen the clip twice now. First time on Click and I am not going to comment about the efficacy of the idea but I was disturbed to hear the fella refusing to show his face say " No you wind your neck in " which makes me think that the officer he was addressing made a similar comment to him which certainly didnt do a lot for police - public relations.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 1:12pm
by Sweep
Won't someone intent upon serious terrorist activity, including joint casing, just subtly change their appearance?

Must be very easy.

After all as a mere bloke I have noted how women can make themselves look incredibly different without any stick-on accessories.

Personally I think this an incredibly dangerous thing - smacks of pre-crime.

Oh brave new world.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 1:15pm
by thirdcrank
I'm reminded here of the farce involving a posse at the SOAS. Nothing to do with digital technology, except that a camera recorded it for posterity and circulation on social media. There some people who are impressed by this sort of crackdown, but others are alienated.

viewtopic.php?p=493543#p493543

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 1:46pm
by Lance Dopestrong
hondated wrote:...which makes me think that the officer he was addressing made a similar comment to him which certainly didnt do a lot for police - public relations.


That's an assumption, the mother of all foxtrot uniforms. It could be the copper said something discourteous or inappropriate, or it could be that the subject is simply a nodder. There is insufficient evidence upon which to draw a remotely reliable conclusion.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 4:25pm
by mercalia
what would the cops have done if a lady in a full face burqua has turned up? tell her to take it off? given her a fixed penalty notice when she got angry? if not then they descriminated against the white guy?

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 5:09pm
by landsurfer
This is my personal " Man the barricades" moment ...
Surveillance by the tech companies is an opt in ... which i have opted out of ...
But FR by the police and government is another place ...... but the dumb opt in of the faceberk generation to all forms of surveillance .. is frightening.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 5:45pm
by Sweep
landsurfer wrote: but the dumb opt in of the faceberk generation to all forms of surveillance .. is frightening.


tend to agree.

And as always in these things we get the mindless "why should I worry - I've got nothing to hide".

Always make me think of "first they came for ..... "

I'd be inclined to hide my face if I came across such a thing - may be quite easy if on a cycling trip on or off the bike as I often use a buff.

As for the guy fined, it's not hard for the police or anyone else in such a situation to antagonise someone into being apparently abusive.

So, I'd cover my face, try to politely make my point if challenged, and see how it panned out.

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 6:03pm
by landsurfer
Sweep wrote:Always make me think of "first they came for ..... "


First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemöller

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 19 May 2019, 6:05pm
by Sweep
thank you landsurfer

Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Posted: 20 May 2019, 12:39pm
by thirdcrank
I'm surprised this topic hasn't attracted more comment.

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