D-Day

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pwa
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Re: D-Day

Postby pwa » 7 Jun 2019, 8:44am

brynpoeth wrote:Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad thinks there is too much remembering and 'celebrating' wars

Simon Jenkins just sits down at his keyboard each morning and thinks "What shall I write an essay on today?" I think he likes to appear clever.

Tangled Metal
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Re: D-Day

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Jun 2019, 8:58am

pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad thinks there is too much remembering and 'celebrating' wars

Simon Jenkins just sits down at his keyboard each morning and thinks "What shall I write an essay on today?" I think he likes to appear clever.

Isn't that the job of communists?

It's our jobs to work out if they really are clever or not by what they write. I suspect he's missing a few points.

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Cugel
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Re: D-Day

Postby Cugel » 7 Jun 2019, 9:40am

pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad thinks there is too much remembering and 'celebrating' wars

Simon Jenkins just sits down at his keyboard each morning and thinks "What shall I write an essay on today?" I think he likes to appear clever.


Well, that's journalism for 'ee.

For myself I feel half of the above. There's a bit too much of an inclination to celebrate our wars rather than remember and reflect on how awful they really were. Always it's about the heroics and rarely about the degradations, misery and war crimes. If the point of the rememberance is not just to regret the deaths of the brave but to recall the reasons for avoiding war, that would be preferable to the sometimes jingoistic aspects.

In the wider media this more nuanced recollection often occurs, with various documentaries showing aspects of our past wars in addition to the heroic. My own horror of war doesn't come from ever having been in one (thank gawd) but from watching many historical doumentaries looking at various wars from many perspectives. Heroics to be praised and remembered as worthy are certainly there. So is a lot of other stuff that ought to remind us about just how evil things can become in wars; and not just amongst the enemy.

Cugel

pwa
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Re: D-Day

Postby pwa » 7 Jun 2019, 9:51am

Cugel wrote:
pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad thinks there is too much remembering and 'celebrating' wars

Simon Jenkins just sits down at his keyboard each morning and thinks "What shall I write an essay on today?" I think he likes to appear clever.


Well, that's journalism for 'ee.

For myself I feel half of the above. There's a bit too much of an inclination to celebrate our wars rather than remember and reflect on how awful they really were. Always it's about the heroics and rarely about the degradations, misery and war crimes. If the point of the rememberance is not just to regret the deaths of the brave but to recall the reasons for avoiding war, that would be preferable to the sometimes jingoistic aspects.

In the wider media this more nuanced recollection often occurs, with various documentaries showing aspects of our past wars in addition to the heroic. My own horror of war doesn't come from ever having been in one (thank gawd) but from watching many historical doumentaries looking at various wars from many perspectives. Heroics to be praised and remembered as worthy are certainly there. So is a lot of other stuff that ought to remind us about just how evil things can become in wars; and not just amongst the enemy.

Cugel


We have just gone through the centenary of every event of World War 1, so there has been a lot of remembering and commemorating for the past four or five years. The Great War is now more than a century ago so we should be seeing that commemorated a bit less in the future. So Jenkins should get some relief from his commemoration fatigue. The D Day stuff did drag on a bit in the media but it is done with now for a while.

reohn2
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Re: D-Day

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2019, 10:07am

We watched the D-Day program on BBC last evening after the news,there was a lot of showbusiness in that program that I think we could've done without.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: D-Day

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Jun 2019, 10:14am

Hmmmm! I got up early on the 6th and watched BBC, itv and sky news on a channel flicking rotation. I might be a bit less cynical than some on here (not aimed at you Cugel) but I am pretty sure the mood was remembrance not celebration. I've not read the sun toilet rag so there is quite possibly some celebrating going on that I've missed.

BBC radio 4 the drive home interviewed two French survivors. One from a town near the beach and the other in the strategic town Germans were dug into. The first had only positive memories of dday. The second (they were both married BTW) was definitely less positive. He understood the liberation was positive but the cost was almost too high for him. The former town they actually do celebrate it, the latter they remember it or at least remember the long spell of bombardment leading up to their liberation.

BBC, itv and sky all discussed the impact of war and the sacrifice of the people (French civilians and allied soldiers). There's stories like the French SF serving on dday with English commandos on one beach. The English commander in the boat ordered his men to step back and let the French SF soldiers make the first footfall. Indeed they were several metres ahead of the English as they made their way up n the beach. The surviving French SF soldier being interviewed was very eloquent in his remembrance of the day and the sacrifice.

Basically lots were made of the way dday helped lead in to the longest period of peace across most of Europe (albeit with the cold War threat which was a kind of war). Also the eec and later EU did help in that but you get the meaning.

I really don't see how people can see sober remembrance of such events as celebrating war. They do celebrate the result of that war though which was peace across western Europe and many bodies such as EU and even un is a positive.

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bigjim
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Re: D-Day

Postby bigjim » 7 Jun 2019, 10:43am

My Father in law was in the first wave on Gold Beach. He admits he was in complete terror being dumped from a landing craft in deep water even though he could not swim. He was 18. His beat friend from school, who at 17 should not have been there, was blown up in front of him. He was shot in the leg and lost his weapons but was forced to fight his way off the beach with only a bayonet as a weapon. After much hand to hand fighting he teamed up with others and found his way inland.
Eventually ended up in a Belgium hospital where the bullets were removed and had time to recover. Then he was parachuted into Greece for more action. Once home he never left the UK again. He had no wish to go abroad. We still have his letters home and his medals. He had a military funeral thanks to the British Legion. He never revelled in his experiences and what little we prised out of him told us that he and his mates spent most of that action time absolutely terrified. No glory for him or them.
Nothing left to prove.

merseymouth
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Re: D-Day

Postby merseymouth » 7 Jun 2019, 10:48am

Hello there, We have yet to actually reach the Centenary of the end of WW1!
Men were still getting killed in 1919, with enough Liverpool Pals, amongst many who had to continue the fighting in Russia.
The treaty to officially end the war wasn't signed until well into 1919. The thorny issue of the German Grand Fleet was yet to be concluded, hence the Grand Scuttle.
So we rightly celebrate the end of WW1 in 2019. MM

* As Alf Lazell, a long gone Tricycle Association member said to shut up the blow hards in a pub - "You don't celebrate it if you've wiped blood of your bayonette", he was at El Alamein!

mercalia
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Re: D-Day

Postby mercalia » 7 Jun 2019, 1:19pm

bigjim wrote:My Father in law was in the first wave on Gold Beach. He admits he was in complete terror being dumped from a landing craft in deep water even though he could not swim. He was 18. His beat friend from school, who at 17 should not have been there, was blown up in front of him. He was shot in the leg and lost his weapons but was forced to fight his way off the beach with only a bayonet as a weapon. After much hand to hand fighting he teamed up with others and found his way inland.
Eventually ended up in a Belgium hospital where the bullets were removed and had time to recover. Then he was parachuted into Greece for more action. Once home he never left the UK again. He had no wish to go abroad. We still have his letters home and his medals. He had a military funeral thanks to the British Legion. He never revelled in his experiences and what little we prised out of him told us that he and his mates spent most of that action time absolutely terrified. No glory for him or them.


thanks for sharing that

mattheus
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Re: D-Day

Postby mattheus » 7 Jun 2019, 4:01pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Hmmmm! I got up early on the 6th and watched BBC, itv and sky news on a channel flicking rotation. I might be a bit less cynical than some on here (not aimed at you Cugel) but I am pretty sure the mood was remembrance not celebration.


I'd broadly agree with that. The dishonrable exception would be RadioFive (odd, because I rarely listen to their non-cricket content!);

they seemed just delighted at every veteran (or descendant of a veteran) they spoke to; "Great stories we're hearing today! :) !

But anyway, I'm nit-picking really ...

I'd recommend the BBC docco last night about the spies (well, double+triple agents in fact) behind the whole fake invasion plan deception. 5 people - of various nationalities - who probably contributed as much to the D-Day success as the whole Russian army.
(presented by Ben Mackintyre, unsurprisingly)