Walking boots - warranty claim query

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Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 15 Jun 2019, 11:17pm

It's a forum. I asked for opinions, which we then discussed. It's sort of what we do, but participation is entirely voluntary, as always.

You'll notice that I did their test, I guess.

PH
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby PH » 15 Jun 2019, 11:54pm

Bonefishblues wrote:It's a forum. I asked for opinions, which we then discussed.

Yes, but normally I'm able to see the point. Were you hoping that Keen would read the forum and change their policy? Did you want someone to agree your test was better than theirs? What difference did you think it would make if everyone did? Or did you need someone to agree your indignation was justified? Maybe you just wanted to slate Keen for what you consider poor customer service.
I have found it amusing, like someone doing a raindance as the clouds gather. Yes I noted you did their test, what else were you going to do, post them back to make them do it themselves? If they'd insisted you do it with Evian bottled water while standing on one leg, wouldn't have made any difference, your choices were always comply with their requirements or send them back, no forum opinion or discussion was going to change that.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Tangled Metal » 16 Jun 2019, 12:32am

If you want my opinion (I'll give it anyway) your test wasn't that good. IMHO I didn't think it proved anything. Certainly not as clearly as a boot of water and water spewing out of the seams near the stitching. IMHO the photographs of they're test shows the failure very clearly but it also indicates location of failure and potential manufacturing cause for failure. Very useful information IMHO.

As a quality engineer I know what information I need from customers to prove the defect in our products and to try and determine the cause(s) of the defect. Customers send me information and photographs. I always end up asking for more photographs and information. To save time it would be better to get all the information I need with their first communication. IMHO that is what keen were doing with their test.

Sorry for having the firm opinion that you are being unreasonable with your reaction over this. I think once you get a reply to your email with photographs of their test method you'll get the response you want and need. Refund or replacement. Do you not think it easier to follow their instructions than obsess over their "unfair" rejection of your test method?

Tbh they have to treat all customers in the same way and for fairness they have to leave systems and processes to ensure fairness every time or at least consistent treatment. Past custom should never give anyone priority. Each purchase is a individual transaction not part of a purchasing history.

Anyway, I hope it gets cleared up next week and you get the refund through.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Jun 2019, 8:04am

PH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:It's a forum. I asked for opinions, which we then discussed.

Yes, but normally I'm able to see the point. Were you hoping that Keen would read the forum and change their policy? Did you want someone to agree your test was better than theirs? What difference did you think it would make if everyone did? Or did you need someone to agree your indignation was justified? Maybe you just wanted to slate Keen for what you consider poor customer service.
I have found it amusing, like someone doing a raindance as the clouds gather. Yes I noted you did their test, what else were you going to do, post them back to make them do it themselves? If they'd insisted you do it with Evian bottled water while standing on one leg, wouldn't have made any difference, your choices were always comply with their requirements or send them back, no forum opinion or discussion was going to change that.

Thanks for that, it's appreciated that you went to the trouble :D

pwa
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby pwa » 16 Jun 2019, 8:23am

Something has gone badly wrong for those boots to leak at the seams like that. Seams are normally considered a weak point in waterproof boots, and the fewer seams in the design the better. But whatever plan Keen had to waterproof those seams has failed dramatically. I know this thread is about consumer rights and service, but it also reaffirms my aversion to hiking boots with too many seams.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Jun 2019, 8:27am

Tangled Metal wrote:If you want my opinion (I'll give it anyway) your test wasn't that good. IMHO I didn't think it proved anything. Certainly not as clearly as a boot of water and water spewing out of the seams near the stitching. IMHO the photographs of they're test shows the failure very clearly but it also indicates location of failure and potential manufacturing cause for failure. Very useful information IMHO.

As a quality engineer I know what information I need from customers to prove the defect in our products and to try and determine the cause(s) of the defect. Customers send me information and photographs. I always end up asking for more photographs and information. To save time it would be better to get all the information I need with their first communication. IMHO that is what keen were doing with their test.

Sorry for having the firm opinion that you are being unreasonable with your reaction over this. I think once you get a reply to your email with photographs of their test method you'll get the response you want and need. Refund or replacement. Do you not think it easier to follow their instructions than obsess over their "unfair" rejection of your test method?

Tbh they have to treat all customers in the same way and for fairness they have to leave systems and processes to ensure fairness every time or at least consistent treatment. Past custom should never give anyone priority. Each purchase is a individual transaction not part of a purchasing history.

Anyway, I hope it gets cleared up next week and you get the refund through.

Thanks for that, it's an interested perspective - my test was to establish that my initial experience of boots leaking was systemic, iyswim - I didn't want to waste anyone's time if there was a reason why I experienced it first time round, but if it happened again, it would also serve to evidence this.

In the event, the same thing happened again, in precisely the same way, and over a walk of the same duration, in similar conditions. Demonstrably, in normal use, these Waterproof boots were not fit for the purpose they were sold. I am not their QA dept, nor was anything mentioned about their test being required for analysis purposes by their uber-cobblers :D

I was frustrated that I had, in advance, written to them to say I would be doing just that, and received no reply to the contrary. Within perhaps 20 mins of me sending in my account and links, I had a response that my test wasn't acceptable, and I simply asked why this was - their email encouraged me to do this, saying:

"If you have any other questions regarding this process, please do not hesitate to ask."

I did ask, and again, and again, and finally got a response a week later. That's what rankled with me further, tbh.

Just one other thing, fairness of treatment doesn't mean that everyone is treated in the same way IMHO - I wrote about that a few days ago. To do so means you will inevitably get situations like this one, I think.
Good companies do take inordinate account of their customers' previous purchasing habits. Because it's good business, that's the reality of it - speak to any CRM specialist, it's their stock in trade.
Treating them the same as other customers is fine as an ideal, as long as you are sure that your systems and processes are consistently outstanding - but they aren't, by and large, so this is almost without exception factored in.
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 16 Jun 2019, 8:30am, edited 2 times in total.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Jun 2019, 8:29am

pwa wrote:Something has gone badly wrong for those boots to leak at the seams like that. Seams are normally considered a weak point in waterproof boots, and the fewer seams in the design the better. But whatever plan Keen had to waterproof those seams has failed dramatically. I know this thread is about consumer rights and service, but it also reaffirms my aversion to hiking boots with too many seams.

I think what has happened is that the inner bootee has failed in both cases, the water has capillaried between the membrane bootee and the leather outer, and found its way through the seam holes, which, assuming the bootee's integrity remains, doesn't matter at all in normal use.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2019, 10:15am

Anyhow, to complete the cycle, the blessed Celine has come back to me (needing only one chase this time) and I have a credit note, valid for a year, against the original purchase price - which means, because I bought them in a sale, I can't afford to replace like-for-like, or for any of their other pairs of Waterproof boots for that matter, so I'll wait for their next sale, I think.

On the plus side, I do still have the boots, so does anyone have any advice on the best waterproofing agent to at least improve their water resistance? I've used Leder Bok on them, but that was more to preserve the look of the leather, and doesn't repel water, clearly.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Jun 2019, 11:02am

Unfortunately treating all leaking claims the same is about fairness but mostly about systems and process. QA is about setting the systems and processes up right so the outcome is as required. In customer service leak testing they have developed their test which in their development allowed for a very simple test that can show leaks when they exist but not give false positives. There could be other tests but that's the one they decided on.

I work in quality and our tests are designed to be so simple a person with difficulties (such as English not their first language) or impairment (almost illiterate, low intelligence or similar) can carry out the test. Instructions are written and illustrated so your don't have to read it. That's needed because there have been illiterate people working there and some do not speak or fully understand English.

You're not in any of those categories but the principle of a very simple to follow test that they have shown internally to work is still needed.

The main thing is that once completed the test resulted in a credit note for what those faulty boots cost you. Unfair to expect full rrp if you hit them on a sale, which I doubt you really expected.

Using them? Only in dry conditions. Or try seam sealer perhaps? I believe some people use a silicone diluted with iirc acetone solvent then paint it on failed seams. Have no idea if the solvent is acetone, if the sealant works or what kind of/source of the silicone to use.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2019, 11:21am

I wasn't expecting a new pair, of course.

This was my second warranty claim with Keen, so I do have a point of comparison, albeit the failures were completely different. This was infinitely more painful than the first. You're looking at this from a specific, technical perspective, about which I, and indeed consumer law, could care less tbh :D Keen really didn't need to ask me to do any more than I had already done, but they chose to, having failed to stop me when I said I was going to replicate the circumstances of my first leak.

I guess I'm another customer, to be treated equally, as others have said I should be, which is something I will bear in mind. This saga does, much more than the product failure itself, cast something of a shadow over the brand I held in such high regard.

Any other thoughts on the best waterproofer, anyone?

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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Vorpal » 22 Jun 2019, 12:09pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I wasn't expecting a new pair, of course.

This was my second warranty claim with Keen, so I do have a point of comparison, albeit the failures were completely different. This was infinitely more painful than the first. You're looking at this from a specific, technical perspective, about which I, and indeed consumer law, could care less tbh :D Keen really didn't need to ask me to do any more than I had already done, but they chose to, having failed to stop me when I said I was going to replicate the circumstances of my first leak.

I guess I'm another customer, to be treated equally, as others have said I should be, which is something I will bear in mind. This saga does, much more than the product failure itself, cast something of a shadow over the brand I held in such high regard.

Any other thoughts on the best waterproofer, anyone?

If they are designed to be waterproof as a result of the membrane, I think that you will have difficulty waterproofing them by other means. That said, I might have a go with Nikwax. Either the one for fabric & leather (I don't remember if it's called Fabric & Leather or Leather & Fabric, but it's one of those), or the one for smooth leather.

BTW, I agree with TM about the test. Also, a picture of wet socks is not necessarily evidence of anything, except that your socks got wet. A picture of water pouring out the seams of a boot, on the other hand, is.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2019, 12:39pm

Vorpal wrote:If it were me I would do their test. If they failed, I'd send them back. If they didn't, I'd write write them again, explain why their test is useless, and how much money I had spent with them, and that they need to put it right.

TBH, they should have done the right thing after you sent your dog walk test.

Is this you posting earlier, or a doppelganger Vorpal? :D

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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Vorpal » 22 Jun 2019, 2:09pm

They were both me :)

After reading what TM posted, I agree with him. Am I not allowed to change my mind? :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Bonefishblues
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Re: Walking boots - warranty claim query

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2019, 2:18pm

Vorpal wrote:They were both me :)

After reading what TM posted, I agree with him. Am I not allowed to change my mind? :wink:

:shock: :o
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