Thank you

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Mick F
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Re: Thank you

Postby Mick F » 13 Jun 2019, 3:00pm

Pastychomper wrote: .........Others might use the label as an excuse not to try, and that would be a shame.
Back from an hour's work-out walk with the dog! Two big hills and a good pace. Nearly as good as cycling! :D

Mrs Mick F is continually telling me not to dwell on my issues and not use it as an excuse not to try. I do try, but not hard enough sometimes ...........she reckons.

Married for 46 years, and I know her better than she knows herself, and she knows me better than I know myself too.
Excellent stuff. This is what a good marriage is all about. :D
Mick F. Cornwall

Tangled Metal
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Re: Thank you

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Jun 2019, 3:12pm

skyhawk wrote:I know what you mean and don't take offence but THIS is the sort of comment that can and still is used and taken the wrong way Tangled Metal, I assume you are not in the UK ;)

"He was very much normal once (by societal measures)

What is................... normal

"Does he take sugar" ..??? !!!!

Aah! It does sound that way when you read it through other people's eyes. I think I am guilty of insensitivity in the way I put it. In my mind I was (nearly typed trying but I really thought I was succeeding) putting it across as parodying the wrong way of saying it. Does that even make sense?

As a background to understand my meaning I will explain that I work in a company that employs what is best described as dregs of UK working society. Harsh but we're talking of drug addicts, the odd person who deals on the side and people for whom politness is simply not knocking you out for looking at them in a way they see as wrong. Low or no education, some can't read that well. The attitude to many mental health is they n should be locked up. ASD and ADHD is made up for sympathy and loads of other things. Tommy Robinson isn't right wing enough types too.

So in my mind I was repeating their phrasing. I don't remember why I thought it was a kind of mick take of people I work with. I do remember thinking of a conversation I've had at work where someone said normal once.

Sorry for that. Personally I've never thought there is a normal anyway so it's bad formulation of my thoughts and came out opposite to the way I think on the topic.

I know you said you didn't issue offence but I'll still apologise because it's not good writing of my views or ideas and is offensive/wrong.

BTW you can possibly understand why I'm not sure a diagnosis would help me where I'm working. To tell my employers of an ADHD or ASD diagnosis would be equivalent to telling the guys from the shopfloor (I'm technical / office staff) and they're not the sort of people to really understand.Except one person I used to m battle with. I told her to eff off she got to me once. Then I reported her and she got a written warning. 2 weeks later she could acknowledge my existence again. 1 month later she started talking to me and things have been great every since. She is on a few drugs for various issues. Antidepressants for migraine and some psychoactive drugs for a mental health condition that b nobody knows what. I've had some very honest discussions about migraine treatment. Anyone else would dismiss it as just a headache and MTFU! She's actually able to talk about mental health with a level head. She talks about that guy I mentioned above quite honestly. She knows him and his wife. Also seen him change. She is very sympathetic but criticises him for not being honest with the owners over it. Which he isn't.

Anyway, I doubt people here understand ASD or ADHD. One guy has a son diagnosed so perhaps. Without understanding employers what good would it do?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Thank you

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Jun 2019, 3:18pm

I grew up a lazy person. Still a lazy person who doesn't try. Or someone with something like ADHD who simply doesn't understand his situation fully. By that I feel a bit hill I need to climb over to get anywhere but I can't reach the next handholds, I can't even see them! If that makes sense. Lack of ambition or lack of understanding how my soft skills are marketable. But that's not ADHD. ADHD is about hitting difficulty and giving up or missing job application deadlines through lack of organisation and planning or burying head in sand. Or... Well I really can't identify what ADHD is doing in my life if I have it.

BTW op what lead you to getting a diagnosis of that's not too personal? And how long did it take / how did you go about it?

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Cugel
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Re: Thank you

Postby Cugel » 13 Jun 2019, 3:55pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Hmmmm! I dispute a lot of what you said but there's still kind of truth there deep down. So I'll dispute a few comments and take it from there.

You're not accepting widely accepted science in writing off syndromes (AIUI actually called disorders) as psychiatrist's imagined syndromes for different behaviour. Or if not that you're being more than a bit sceptical as to the advantages of such a label for disorders. Indeed it seems that these are behavioural only. Perhaps you can change them back to normal?? That's the implication I suppose I took from your post, probably wrong inference but your colourful prose can confuse me at times.

AIUI ASD and ADHD isn't the behaviours if you like they are the symptoms. The cough with a cold, the bleeding with a cut out the cloudy vision with a cateract. They're symptoms of a disorder or atypical brain patterns. Or something like that.

It can be measured in various ways of which. AIUI from the TV programme I saw on it neuroscience has got imaging techniques which can detect even the least obvious cases of asd in a way not been possible before.

This is not a current fashion in classification it's more than that. Whatever name has been put on it that isn't what it is. It's a real disorder that's not being disputed by current neuroscience AFAIK but has been accepted the is psychiatric journal for conditions recognised by the US medical science community and their appropriate specialists has contained asd and ADHD for decades. That journal is widely used worldwide as the accepted list of conditions and disorders. Indeed the EU 's version of this simply copies the American one. Other nations do the same.

Basically I'm saying whatever your view on medicine don't downgrade disorders like asd or ADHD for any doubts or suspicions you have over medical science. It's real not made up.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your meaning and the above is irrelevant.


I'm assuming that your replying to my post.

I suggest that the categories of the US journal and other psychiatric tomes are not so much made-up as very imprecise, confused and perhaps even inappropriate to describe as medical conditions or illnesses requiring treatment. There is, in fact, a great deal of suspicion - even amongst psychiatrists themselves - about the categories of that US journal. Some "treatments" have often done (still are doing) great harms.

This doesn't mean that there aren't behavioural or mental "conditions" that can be problematic or otherwise requiring a recognition so that others can adapt to them or even offer help. That's self-evident and not disputed by people who find themselves "abnormal" in the sense of having difficulty behaving like most others; or in what's culturally believed to be, at a particular time and place, "acceptable".

Personally I feel the issue is that having broad and imprecise labels to identify "a spectrum" of quite variegated behaviours can cause more problems than it solves. It isn't only others who use such labels to stereotype then villify, condemn or discriminate against those so-labelled. It can be a self-defeating acceptance by a person so-diagnosed that they are abnormal and therefore inadequate, at fault, ill, disabled or otherwise incapable. Acceptance of the label and the notion that it's "a mental disability" is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that "I won't be able to cope".

Whether someone with peculiar or abnormal behaviours can cope or not is often (not always) entirely down to how accepting others are of that behaviour. How understanding. How helpful in aiding those with unusual behavioural to navigate life's hurdles and pitfalls. In many ways, most of us have behaviours that are challenging at times. We all rely on others to help us cope with those behaviours. We all require others to be accepting to a degree for behaviours that, from their point of view, are difficult.

Some have more challenging behaviours than others. Perhaps they need more help, of various kinds. But it would be tragic if a psychiatric label resulted (as it has in the past, many times) in people being "treated" with procedures that are against their will, against their interests and often cruel in the extreme. Even more tragic if the person so-diagnosed and "treated" goes along with the abuse because they believe in the cod-diagnosis of some enthusiastic psychiatrist with a tinpot favourite theory.

See not just Victorian but a great deal of C20th psychiatric history for details.

Consider: is psychiatry a science or still something more like sociology, economics or (at it's worst) astrology?

Cugel

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Re: Thank you

Postby skyhawk » 13 Jun 2019, 4:12pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I grew up a lazy person. Still a lazy person who doesn't try. Or someone with something like ADHD who simply doesn't understand his situation fully. By that I feel a bit hill I need to climb over to get anywhere but I can't reach the next handholds, I can't even see them! If that makes sense. Lack of ambition or lack of understanding how my soft skills are marketable. But that's not ADHD. ADHD is about hitting difficulty and giving up or missing job application deadlines through lack of organisation and planning or burying head in sand. Or... Well I really can't identify what ADHD is doing in my life if I have it.

BTW op what lead you to getting a diagnosis of that's not too personal? And how long did it take / how did you go about it?


I have always had problems being with people, to be honest I hate being with people and don't mix, it was my son who was diagnosed and whilst i was with him the psychiatrist said that having met me a number of times it may be worth me being checked (call it what you may), I was, the rest is history a year later

BUT as I said all my life I have been aware I was not normal, called stupid, failing in school, unable to mix with others and yet an IQ of 140
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more

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Mick F
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Re: Thank you

Postby Mick F » 13 Jun 2019, 4:47pm

skyhawk wrote:BUT as I said all my life I have been aware I was not normal, called stupid, failing in school, unable to mix with others and yet an IQ of 140
In the latter stages of being in the RN we were doing a small arms course regarding weapons and the use. We were being taught the military way of things by some Army and Royal Marines.

At one point, our lessons included stripping down the SA80 semi automatic rifle. The routine needed us to do it perfectly in perfect order and we were observed. I continually did one single operation incorrectly. It made more sense to me to do it that way!

Anyway, I was summoned to see the Sgt Major (only a tiny bit more senior to me) and was threatened with being sent back to my ship having failed the course! :lol: :lol:
He suggested I had learning difficulties! :shock:

Basically, he was right, but wrong at the same time. I cannot follow the rules by the book and make my own way. For all my service career, this had worked perfectly as the RN likes self-starters and free-thinkers and I had a good career with great reports ........... until I had to strip a weapon as per the instructions that didn't allow for self-starters and free-thinkers! :lol: :lol:

At one point - early 90's - I sat the Mensa exam and passed easily. Can't remember my IQ score, but it was well over 100 and was offered to join Mensa. I never did, as it meant going up to Bristol to do it, and I couldn't be bothered as there was nothing actually in it for me other than a certificate. To know I could have joined, was enough.
Mick F. Cornwall

Tangled Metal
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Re: Thank you

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Jun 2019, 5:02pm

We are not in the age of victorian psychiatry. We are in an era of modern neuroscience and psychiatry. You seem stuck in the past about that. There's major advances in neuro science that allows for imaging of the brain's activity. AIUI many of those disorders that traditionally have been treated as artificial pseudo disorders, of which ADHD has traditionally been seen, can be physically observed through modern neuroscience's major advances over the last 5 or 10 years. It's revelatory like xrays once were.

BTW I grew up in times where ADD was first proposed and the medical and educational establishment just wrote it off as apologising for bad behaviour of children, bad parenting or both. Right now it's very much accepted and studied.

There's been enough research to believe it's a theory that holds under scrutiny. It's not labels it's a diagnosis as valid as one for cataracts indeed more valid than many accepted conditions like IBS (which as a sufferer I know it's just a label a gp puts on a range of issues to fob patients off with over the counter medicines to ease individual symptoms rather than trying to work out what it really is).

As to your other points, which AFAIK seems to be about general public 's acceptance or not of it and the resulting attitude to people identified as having it. That's all part of the problem. Mental health, of which I believe ASD and ADHD comes under, needs acceptance and understanding. Calling it a label or a label of convenience it whatever you're saying isn't that IMHO.

I suggest that the categories of the US journal and other psychiatric tomes are not so much made-up as very imprecise, confused and perhaps even inappropriate to describe as medical conditions or illnesses requiring treatment.


Imprecise? Confused? I suspect that's an issue with the state of modern understanding of such disorders. If we're still trying to understand a condition or disorder of the brain then that's really not an issue with the disorder but the issue with where we are in the understanding of the mind. It's like we're only just looking into it because the technology to image and study brain activity is barely a couple of decades old, if that. I once heard it described in a succinct way along the lines of comparing it to another established branch of medicine but centuries back. We're really just starting to crawl in the study of the brain.

As to treatment, well what is treatment when you can't define causes? You can't treat you manage. Just like migraines, epilepsy (I guess) and IBS (whatever that really is). One way might be a Ritalin type of medication for ADHD or CBT / other so called talking treatments. I understand they can work well once the level is sorted. It's at least a potential help but not a real treatment.

Personally I feel the issue is that having broad and imprecise labels to identify "a spectrum" of quite variegated behaviours can cause more problems than it solves. It isn't only others who use such labels to stereotype then villify, condemn or discriminate against those so-labelled. It can be a self-defeating acceptance by a person so-diagnosed that they are abnormal and therefore inadequate, at fault, ill, disabled or otherwise incapable. Acceptance of the label and the notion that it's "a mental disability" is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that "I won't be able to cope".

OK, broad and imprecise. IMHO disorders such as ADHD are very broad. Why? I don't know and I doubt many do of any. It's cause(s) aren't known. That's always going to be the case until more is known about it. At what point was a running nose connected to a cough and called a cold? What symptoms get lumped together as one condition only to be found out as another. I once thought I was unlucky getting cold after cold but it was simply an allergic reaction to one or more allergens. Until we understand disorders better they will be broad. Who knows ADHD might end up being co-morbid disorders lik3 ASD and ADHD can be. Bi polar disorder too is co morbid.

Others using such diagnoses as ADHD or ASD to criticise or vilify the person isn't the disorders fault it's simply the prejudice of the person who uses it against the person with that diagnosis. Saying the diagnosis is problematic because it divides that person out for negative response is a big problem. Is it not apologising prejudice? Serious question. Writing off the diagnosis because of other's reaction to it. Is that what you are saying?

As to self fulfilling prophecy. Oh dear. Anyone who has gone through the trials of getting a diagnosis in the modern NHS is not someone for whom a label for their disorder will cause it to suddenly make it a problem. For a start you're not going to go through that long drawn out process unless you already have a problem. It's there already. Can I suggest you read some of the numerous posts on getting a diagnosis on any add/ADHD forum. It might help you understand the difficulties of getting help and the nature of the problems faced. Plus the results of getting that diagnosis and help.

Perhaps my view is totally wrong here but I for one know I have a problem. I've made a move towards diagnosis and two medical people so far think I have very good indications of ADHD and that I have a problem that is worthy of investigation using the limited resources of the nhs. First step gp, second step pointless phone consult by depression service. Third step would be gp again. It might get diagnosed in two years of back and forth between gp and various NHS mental health services. Eventually I might get referred to a centre in London which I heard might no longer be dealing sun nhs patients or possibly there's a Scottish centre looking into it. More likely I'll get told it's private diagnosis or nothing.

My point is the diagnosis and receipt of what you call a label is a long drawn out battle to get. You will never do that unless you feel your problem is worse. That's the decision only the person can make themselves with good advice (currently only available informally from other people with such a disorder on a few forums. Once you've made that decision you're really not going to fulfil any prophesy about not coping because you're already there.

BTW labels and mistreatment from others over such disorders is prejudice and should be condemned. Disability. You could argue the same for wheelchair users or the blind. Is calling someone with a disabling condition or disorder disabled right. If you dispute ADHD as disabling then that's possibly it not understanding its severity or potential for being severe. Might be easier with ASD because someone with severe autism is not able to fully function in modern, society at the same level as someone not on the ASD spectrum.

BTW my use of medical conditions isn't equating then exactly I'm only trying to make points about diagnosis and acceptance. The process of diagnosis of asd or ADHD is at its core a similar process as diagnosing medical conditions in that you look at the symptoms and history of the person. Of course under current neuro science the idea of a diagnosis and potential for managing symptoms is the best to be hoped for.

Anyway I doubt I'll change the view of someone who has the view a medical doctor who has specialised in psychiatry is comparable in any way to an astrologer. They're not the modern day version of a blood letter physician. It's a genuine medical specialism these days and is increasingly being backed up with neuroscience.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Thank you

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Jun 2019, 5:09pm

BUT as I said all my life I have been aware I was not normal, called stupid, failing in school, unable to mix with others and yet an IQ of 140


I think I could have written the same thing. Right down to IQ measured at 140. Only thing is I read never called stupid. Lazy but not stupid. I didn't really fail at school. 9 gcse and 4 a levels including general studies A. Good general knowledge and ability to learn things. There's others with ADHD who are very academically successful too. A for attainment D or E for effort. Basically I didn't work but still got mid table results in a grammar school. That marked me out as a lazy person who should be grade A throughout. So in some ways I did fail. Actually badly.

skyhawk
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Re: Thank you

Postby skyhawk » 13 Jun 2019, 6:04pm

I think my son is lucky and so are others now who have come along in this day and age.

I was an underachiever, bullied at school, always made to feel useless.

When my sons were 65 and 3 they were very bad, not helped by my now ex wife encouraging my eldest to spit and swear at me. I was told that I was a bad parent, all down to me being a terrible parent out of control with no control.

To cut a long story very short, sons taken in to care AFTER I begged social services for help, I never saw them again for 6 months, tried everything. Wife fought to have them adopted, I fought harder for custody. The social worker said if he has his way I will never see my sons again. That was the later dismissed social worker.

SHORT version, after TWO years I was granted custody, FULL, and the psychiatrist who said Bad Parent apologized in court saying they had ADHD and that her diagnosis was probably wrong in hindsight...................******* ***** ***** ******** ******

Finally medication, and help, three years ago at 22 all diagnosed with Aspergers, ADHD, ODB and one with PTSD.

These days I would like to think no one especially the youngsters will ever suffer in this way again.

NEVER GIVE UP.
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more

skyhawk
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Re: Thank you

Postby skyhawk » 13 Jun 2019, 6:07pm

Tangled Metal

Never give up
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more

Oldjohnw
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Re: Thank you

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jun 2019, 12:39am

Mick F wrote:Since the realisation of my issues (note I don't think of myself being disabled or suffering) I'm more able to understand and pander to my likes and dislikes - to the continual disparagement of Mrs Mick F! :lol:

Now I'm more understanding of myself, I'll go to bed when I want, and get up when I want, no matter what time of day or night. Being retired is great. Some days - like today - I'll do absolutely nothing (though I will walk the dog later) and some days I'm like a Whirling Dervish as the fancy takes me.

Sometimes I yearn to be in a pitch dark room insulated from the sounds and worries of the world around me. Sort of switched off and in standby mode.

It's Fathers Day on Sunday and the family is coming round. We'll have a house-full. If it were up to me in a selfish way, I'd tell them all to bugger off and leave me alone in peace and quiet ............... but I won't because I shouldn't. I will enjoy it, but at this very moment in time, I want to run away and hide.

........... and thank you all for allowing me to get it off my chest.


Sounds a pretty normal existence to me.
John

Cycling and recycling

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Paulatic
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Re: Thank you

Postby Paulatic » 14 Jun 2019, 8:31am

Oldjohnw wrote:
Mick F wrote:Since the realisation of my issues (note I don't think of myself being disabled or suffering) I'm more able to understand and pander to my likes and dislikes - to the continual disparagement of Mrs Mick F! :lol:

Now I'm more understanding of myself, I'll go to bed when I want, and get up when I want, no matter what time of day or night. Being retired is great. Some days - like today - I'll do absolutely nothing (though I will walk the dog later) and some days I'm like a Whirling Dervish as the fancy takes me.

Sometimes I yearn to be in a pitch dark room insulated from the sounds and worries of the world around me. Sort of switched off and in standby mode.

It's Fathers Day on Sunday and the family is coming round. We'll have a house-full. If it were up to me in a selfish way, I'd tell them all to bugger off and leave me alone in peace and quiet ............... but I won't because I shouldn't. I will enjoy it, but at this very moment in time, I want to run away and hide.

........... and thank you all for allowing me to get it off my chest.


Sounds a pretty normal existence to me.


Yep all seems to me too :D
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Thank you

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jun 2019, 10:16am

Paulatic wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Mick F wrote:Since the realisation of my issues (note I don't think of myself being disabled or suffering) I'm more able to understand and pander to my likes and dislikes - to the continual disparagement of Mrs Mick F! :lol:

Now I'm more understanding of myself, I'll go to bed when I want, and get up when I want, no matter what time of day or night. Being retired is great. Some days - like today - I'll do absolutely nothing (though I will walk the dog later) and some days I'm like a Whirling Dervish as the fancy takes me.

Sometimes I yearn to be in a pitch dark room insulated from the sounds and worries of the world around me. Sort of switched off and in standby mode.

It's Fathers Day on Sunday and the family is coming round. We'll have a house-full. If it were up to me in a selfish way, I'd tell them all to bugger off and leave me alone in peace and quiet ............... but I won't because I shouldn't. I will enjoy it, but at this very moment in time, I want to run away and hide.

........... and thank you all for allowing me to get it off my chest.


Sounds a pretty normal existence to me.


Yep all seems to me too :D


I sometimes feel that the older I get the more like that I feel. Perhaps it is simply that I no longer need approval. I am no longer on a career path. I don't expect a pay rise. I don't need to sweeten anyone up. I already got a Queen's Birthday thingy. So s*d them all.
John

Cycling and recycling

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SimonCelsa
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Re: Thank you

Postby SimonCelsa » 14 Jun 2019, 5:12pm

Yes, it seems we get a lot of this in our developed societies. Not like those poor buggers in many parts of the World who have quite a lot more to contemplate.....like trying to make a living with very few or zero opportunities. First World problems maybe.

skyhawk
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Re: Thank you

Postby skyhawk » 14 Jun 2019, 7:50pm

SimonCelsa wrote:Yes, it seems we get a lot of this in our developed societies. Not like those poor buggers in many parts of the World who have quite a lot more to contemplate.....like trying to make a living with very few or zero opportunities. First World problems maybe.



You think mental illness is a first world problem, let us hope you never have this first world problem when you get older, there is time yet
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more