Thank you

[Cyril Haearn]

Actually mental health problems are common in modern changing society where many people have choices, plusminus
In the stable communities before the industrial revolution things were different, people had support from old wise people who were always there
A wiseperson dated a big change to the introduction of external energy, for centuries horse power and mills were the main source, then electricity and the infernal combustion engine turned up, lots of change quickly
..
I guess I have been lucky, like many others I have had more opportunities and choices (not primarily financial) (n+1, +2..), choices to grow and learn, than our grandparents could have imagined
Trouble is, choices, opportunities, *decisions* can go wrong. Fortunately one acquires wisdom oneself with age
I think I am on the spectrum too (couldnae load the test)

[SimonCelsa]

Believe me, I have a fair bit of experience with mental health, not me personally, but very close family members.

No, it is not at all easy but some instances (not all) are somewhat self inflicted, and as a result of very poor lifestyle choices. The inability to sleep in one's own bed once it has been made is one of the main problems nowadays.

Mental toughness, reliable & responsible family, and the ability to be content without superfluous lifestyle accoutrements is half the battle.

I judge nobody, merely making an observation.

[skyhawk]

Can I say what a breath of fresh air this has been, in particular and in bold, no one has judged anyone else or forced an opinion on others.

There have been no arguments and a BIG thank you to the FORUM for allowing this topic, good on you

[skyhawk]

Believe me, I have a fair bit of experience with mental health, not me personally, but very close family members.

No, it is not at all easy but some instances (not all) are somewhat self inflicted, and as a result of very poor lifestyle choices. The inability to sleep in one's own bed once it has been made is one of the main problems nowadays.

Mental toughness, reliable & responsible family, and the ability to be content without superfluous lifestyle accoutrements is half the battle.

I judge nobody, merely making an observation.

Mental toughness ?

Hmmm...............

Years ago when I first lost my sons I had an almost breakdown, came that close, thank god I got them back but, my Father of the "old days" said "People with mental problems want to pull themselves together and snap out of it"

When his wife died I did not remind him of this when he called me many many times saying how he can't cope any more !

"There but for the grace of God......................."

[SimonCelsa]

Yes, but that's not mental illness, it is just life!!

Anyhow, all the best to you and your sons, and here's hoping for a decent summer so we can all get out on the bikes more and clear the fugg from our brains as necessary.

[Cugel]

Yes, but that's not mental illness, it is just life!!

Anyhow, all the best to you and your sons, and here's hoping for a decent summer so we can all get out on the bikes more and clear the fugg from our brains as necessary.

I fear the demarcations between those two causes (mental illness & just life) of various angsts and socially-difficult mind-states may be far less clear than you seem to think. But perhaps you have a special filter that can easily differentiate the two? If so, I'd be most interested in knowing the parameters of this filter and who established them.

That Descartes said there was a separate mind from body in the humans. Many believed him, including some who developed notions of "mental illness" as a malfunction of some mysterious mind-stuff. Can one have an illness that's made of metaphysical stuff? What does this stuff consist of? How come it seems to affect the body?

Others opine that there is only the physical aspect but that the mind is a bodily process to do with some sort of centralised control nexus, which nexus can become ill in various fashions. Does "just life" (both the physical and metaphysical aspects, e.g. bad housing and being bullied on Facebook) cause mental illness? If it's "just life" what do we call the malfunctions (including the mental ones) that humans suffer when under such "just life" pressures?

Finally, who decides that certain behaviours resulting from certain persistent or habitual mind states are "illness"? An imaginary experiment: if there was a large island on which all the human inhabitants were bi-polar, would the mood swings, depressions and manic periods be regarded as illness or just normal? Those who are bi-polar often cope with "just life" after all, even if it may be difficult at times.

Cugel

[Tangled Metal]

Aren't ASD and ADHD disorders not illnesses. Illnesses imply cures are possible. Disorders implies something that just is, it just exists. In these cases it's a kind of difference from so called normal behaviour traits. Appropriate word if you read ADHD forum posts from someone who is really struggling with their disorder. A lack of order in their life and inability to fully function in modern society.

I can see how people might think it's a first world problem. I personally think it's only that first world noticed it and acknowledged it first. It's always been present in possibly the same level throughout human existence.

Perhaps it's more of an issue to a modern, first world. By that I mean, could ADHD not be an asset in say hunter gather societies? There's certainly a view ASD and ADHD sufferers could have an advantage over NT people in certain situations. I gave an example of a guy who was employed due to his mental health condition (ASD) in a lowly position who demonstrated a high level talent on control software programming.

There's certainly a view now with those working with ADHD and ASD that people with those disorders have a kind of superhero ability in some cases. Things such as hyper focus sometimes found with ASD and ADHD can mean fault finding / debugging software is something such people are good at. They can spend hours concentrating solely on the code, a very boring and repetitive task that in NT more often results in missed faults being missed.

It's all interesting stuff IMHO.

[Cugel]

Aren't ASD and ADHD disorders not illnesses. Illnesses imply cures are possible. Disorders implies something that just is, it just exists. In these cases it's a kind of difference from so called normal behaviour traits. Appropriate word if you read ADHD forum posts from someone who is really struggling with their disorder. A lack of order in their life and inability to fully function in modern society.

I can see how people might think it's a first world problem. I personally think it's only that first world noticed it and acknowledged it first. It's always been present in possibly the same level throughout human existence.

Perhaps it's more of an issue to a modern, first world. By that I mean, could ADHD not be an asset in say hunter gather societies? There's certainly a view ASD and ADHD sufferers could have an advantage over NT people in certain situations. I gave an example of a guy who was employed due to his mental health condition (ASD) in a lowly position who demonstrated a high level talent on control software programming.

There's certainly a view now with those working with ADHD and ASD that people with those disorders have a kind of superhero ability in some cases. Things such as hyper focus sometimes found with ASD and ADHD can mean fault finding / debugging software is something such people are good at. They can spend hours concentrating solely on the code, a very boring and repetitive task that in NT more often results in missed faults being missed.

It's all interesting stuff IMHO.

The context in which various human behaviours occur is, as you intimate, the crux of the matter when trying to understand the import of treating these various behaviours as in some way abnormal. In different situations, certain mind-states regarded as abnormal may well be not just better at dealing with the differences of the situation but actually quite normal for most humans in that different situation. And humans can change their mind-state quite radically.

The obvious example is wartime, in which those enmeshed in the war will be better equipped if they acquire mind-states such as paranoia, a certain kind of controlled mania and various other mental outlooks regarded as difficult or even mad in peacetime. Many who have been at war for some time return to peacetime and cannot easily shuffle-off such mind-states. Their mind insists that such mental outlooks have kept them alive and are therefore still required. Some become very problematical indeed to the rest of the population, as well as themselves.

But (again as you say) there are in-built human mentalities that have probably always been there in a significant portion of the population but, in previous times, less noticeable because they were probably useful to have. It's not so long ago that most people had to live in very primitive societies which involved a low-level of internecine warfare of all-against-all. Strewth! Even in the 1950s and early 60s, it was a bit like that for children roaming the sometimes savage streets of Tyneside and other such tough areas!

Before we had rozzers and law oriented not just for the benefit of the kings and barons, life was pretty tough for the peasants, who had best have a degree of paranoia, ability to do violence and several other behavioural traits that tended to ensure self-preservation. Those who had them built-in rather than having to learn them were perhaps at an advantage?

**********
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel disquiet at various now "unusual" behaviours and attitudes being classified as an illness; or even as a disorder. This classification provides a too-easy means to repress or even incarcerate such people "for their own good". The C20th (and probably C21st) are full of such repressions and persecutions. I'd rather such behaviours were regarded as nothing more than a character or personality trait requiring responses more considered than those of ordinary everyday life - including formal aid if that would help.

Today, many behaviours are regarded as problematic and, in the more extreme cases, classified as "mental illness". Even the classification "a disorder" suggests that such behaviours and mind-states are somehow "wrong". In practice, they may be just inconvenient, for those with the behaviours and those subject to them. But I'd argue it's still just a matter of degree. A lot of people are difficult to deal with in some ways but (again, as you mention) have other outstanding, useful or otherwise valuable behaviours on the other side of their behavioural coin, as it were.

Anyroadup, unless a behaviour is seriously self-harming, or seriously harming to others, I feel the best approach is just tolerance with (if it's appropriate) some extra social help (formal or informal) to those who don't mesh that well with our current social mores and norms. In short, I am in favour of "the eccentric" and feel they should be included not excluded. This starts with eschewing the various classification schemes (mental illness, disabled et al) which suggests they are too different to be included so should be segregated in various ways.

On the other hand, some now normal behaviours seem dangerously mad to me and should be dealt with via the booby hatch! Step forward B Johnson, N Farage and D Trump!

Cugel

[Oldjohnw]

Cugel wrote:

On the other hand, some now normal behaviours seem dangerously mad to me and should be dealt with via the booby hatch! Step forward B Johnson, N Farage and D Trump

So is narcissism an illness, a learning difficulty or merely a character trait, dangerous when attached to a person in power?

[skyhawk]

Tangled Metal

IT IS AN ILLNESS

https://cmha.bc.ca/documents/attention- ... -adults-2/

[Cugel]

Tangled Metal

IT IS AN ILLNESS

https://cmha.bc.ca/documents/attention- ... -adults-2/

Shouting it won't make it so.

ADHD might be a bluddy nuisance sometimes but do you want some psycho-analist insisting on filling you with drug just to keep you quiet and compliant? Or being treated in some 2nd class way by various organisations because you are deemed "sick"? Why not call it a personality type, which doesn't require a "medical expert" to take over your life and tell you what you ought to do and not do?

But perhaps you can say why you think such a personality trait should be classified as an illness rather than just a proclivity, habit, characteristic or other description with less in the way of a "control them" implication?

Cugel

[skyhawk]

Tangled Metal

IT IS AN ILLNESS

https://cmha.bc.ca/documents/attention- ... -adults-2/

Shouting it won't make it so.

ADHD might be a bluddy nuisance sometimes but do you want some psycho-analist insisting on filling you with drug just to keep you quiet and compliant? Or being treated in some 2nd class way by various organisations because you are deemed "sick"? Why not call it a personality type, which doesn't require a "medical expert" to take over your life and tell you what you ought to do and not do?

But perhaps you can say why you think such a personality trait should be classified as an illness rather than just a proclivity, habit, characteristic or other description with less in the way of a "control them" implication?

Cugel

It is an illness NOT a personality trait (it is bloody not bluddy and analyst not analist ), and why should I say what it is read the NHS link above at least the UK has an NHS, as for proclivity, that is a choice people with ADHD etc don't have choices, if you had the mental illness you would know

[Cugel]

Cugel wrote:

On the other hand, some now normal behaviours seem dangerously mad to me and should be dealt with via the booby hatch! Step forward B Johnson, N Farage and D Trump

So is narcissism an illness, a learning difficulty or merely a character trait, dangerous when attached to a person in power?

It's a set of behavioural proclivities and habits, all of which are neither clear nor agreed by the psycho-men. It's nothing to do with intelligence or lack of it; nor with an inability to learn. It's generally defined to be something to do with a very strong desire to be loved alongside a paranoia about not being, allied with an inability to empathise despite needing constant approval from everyone yet being unable to discern if they're really giving it or not.

But if you look up the various definitions, you'll find a dozen theories, each with their own list of personality parameters and behaviours that define "the condition". Psychiatry is not any kind of exact science. It might not be as made-up-stuffish as astrology but you won't find any agreed body of current definitions of the various psychiatric "illnesses" although there are various psychiatric associations that have more or less "power" in promoting their views.

Psychiatry often seems a rather peculiar version of sociology or anthropology, themselves far from being exact sciences. The various early theorists still have their schools of thought, which theories themselves sound a bit mad to the lay-reader. Try Freud, for example. Or that Jung!

There has been some recent progress in understanding brain and other bodily functions that have primary effects on behaviour .... but there isn't anything near a hard science as yet. There are many theories; some practice; some successful practices and lots of unsuccessful practice (psychoanalysis, for example). There's a lot of treating "symptoms" (i.e. inconvenient feelings and behaviours) with heavy-duty drugs, which themselves have some rather alarming side-effects.

I wouldn't deny that there is some successful treatment of debilitating mental states by some psychiatrists but they seem few and far between, frankly.

*****
As to your original question: my answer is that I don't know whether to classify Trumpish and similar behaviours as a mental illness but I do know the boogers are dangerous and ought to be deprived of those powers they have somehow acquired, before we all regret it very much indeed.

No doubt there were similar sentiments expressed as Genghis and Adolf ran amok.....

Cugel

[Oldjohnw]

Can I just point out that I asked if narcissism not ADHD was an illness or a personality trait? I have no doubts about ADHD.

[skyhawk]

Can I just point out that I asked if narcissism not ADHD was an illness or a personality trait? I have no doubts about ADHD.

OK sorry mis read, that is part of my autism problem, reading/understanding