Thank you

[Oldjohnw]

Can I just point out that I asked if narcissism not ADHD was an illness or a personality trait? I have no doubts about ADHD.

OK sorry mis read, that is part of my autism problem, reading/understanding

Understood.

[Cugel]

Tangled Metal

IT IS AN ILLNESS

https://cmha.bc.ca/documents/attention- ... -adults-2/

Shouting it won't make it so.

ADHD might be a bluddy nuisance sometimes but do you want some psycho-analist insisting on filling you with drug just to keep you quiet and compliant? Or being treated in some 2nd class way by various organisations because you are deemed "sick"? Why not call it a personality type, which doesn't require a "medical expert" to take over your life and tell you what you ought to do and not do?

But perhaps you can say why you think such a personality trait should be classified as an illness rather than just a proclivity, habit, characteristic or other description with less in the way of a "control them" implication?

Cugel

It is an illness NOT a personality trait (it is bloody not bluddy and analyst not analist ), and why should I say what it is read the NHS link above at least the UK has an NHS, as for proclivity, that is a choice people with ADHD etc don't have choices, if you had the mental illness you would know

A tomato can be defined as a delicious fruit good with pasta and blue cheese. Or it can be defined as an excellent missile of disapproval when let go-rotten. We tend to prefer the former definition in our current culture but just imagine if the latter definition was to become prominent - generally accepted as the prime and essential definition of what a tomato is.

People would buy and rot tomatoes then take them to where they could throw them in gestures of disapproval. This behaviour has become culturally commonplace as that's what tomatoes are for and tomato sellers will sell tomatoes, whatever they get used for. Everyone's doing it! There would be consequences. I leave the continuing tale of the tomato-throwing cultural developments to your imagination.

The point is that definitions of real-world things all have consequences. If you define the personality traits of ADHD behaviour as an illness, that has consequences of one sort - the sort generally associated with being ill. If you define it as just a type of behaviour found in some people, that has different consequences.

Which consequences might you prefer? Those who I know who have been classified "disabled" understand very well what consequences come from that classification. Some of those consequences are unpleasant, as both recent and old news illustrate. Being defined as " a person with a less than optimum ability to walk" just means you might benefit from a stick or other aid.

Words and their meanings - a dangerous minefield of consequences!

Cugel

[colin54]

I caught the end of this programme yesterday made by Chris Packham( BBC nature programmes
presenter ) describing the effect on his life of Asperger syndrome, interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... ers-and-me

[Ben@Forest]

Part of the scepticism about this nowadays is the tendency to self-diagnosis. Some (but not all) people now describe themselves or their children as autistic, or on the spectrum, or having ADHD, or slightly dyslexic or dyspraxic, or having a food intolerance without ever having it medically diagnosed.

The reliance on internet tests to determine these things is interesting too. I wonder how many would diagnose an STD, or cancer through an internet questionnaire only, without seeking professional help.

[Mick F]

For my own part, my autism is mild and isn't an issue to me, so having a medical diagnosis wouldn't make an iota of difference to me or anyone else. I know I have issues, and anyone who knows me knows too - and always have.

It was me who was the last to know.

As for my alopecia universalis, I haven't had a medical diagnosis for that either.
So what?
I have no hair at all. What more information do I need?

[Ben@Forest]

For my own part, my autism is mild and isn't an issue to me, so having a medical diagnosis wouldn't make an iota of difference to me or anyone else...

Yes and no. On another thread you mentioned you couldn't carry out a weapons handling or assembly drill because you thought you knew a better way to do it. If you'd been a recruit that might have jeopardised an entire career in the Forces. As it waa as a SNCO it just invoked some spluttering from your CO.

And you are only thinking of it from your perspective - or are you saying that anyone who has self diagnosed autism or Aspergers has it right? Somewhere along that line are people who are neither but are introverted or irascible or intolerant.

[Cugel]

For my own part, my autism is mild and isn't an issue to me, so having a medical diagnosis wouldn't make an iota of difference to me or anyone else...

Yes and no. On another thread you mentioned you couldn't carry out a weapons handling or assembly drill because you thought you knew a better way to do it. If you'd been a recruit that might have jeopardised an entire career in the Forces. As it waa as a SNCO it just invoked some spluttering from your CO.

And you are only thinking of it from your perspective - or are you saying that anyone who has self diagnosed autism or Aspergers has it right? Somewhere along that line are people who are neither but are introverted or irascible or intolerant.

You make a good point. Putting stuff like behavioural habits or sets of attitudes into categories with all sorts of additional baggage (such as "a sickness") allocates those so-designated as having a whole range of things besides the particular behaviours or attitudes in question.

Sometimes such allocations of behaviours and attitudes into a category such as "sickness" means that the person involved can be treated ('scuse pun) in various standardised ways appropriate to sick people. Many who are designated "mentally ill" because of their challenging behaviour or unusual beliefs are, for example "quarantined" - i.e. locked away in some sort of asylum (aka a special prison). They may also be given "a treatment for their own good" in the form of heavy duty drugs that are really just to shut them up for the convenience of others.

It also works the other way, as you mention. Some who are just indulging themselves in various kinds of egregious or nasty behaviours will offer up the excuse - the get-out-of-gaol-card - that they have an illness or condition. "It wasn't my fault I beat up the wife every Friday and Tuesday, Yer Honour, it was my syndrome which I cannot help". Sometimes these claims to such a classification result in an undeserved forgiveness for behaviours or attitudes which would otherwise be punished or condemned. Handy, that, to the nasty bloke. Or the utterly selfish bloke. Or the bloke who isn't so much incapable of empathy and sympathy but just prefers being a right bar-steward to all and sundry.

Witness various of the Hollywood gropers, all now claiming their serial groping and raping was "a condition needing treatment that I'm now willing to have". Ha!

Cugel

[Mick F]

For my own part, my autism is mild and isn't an issue to me, so having a medical diagnosis wouldn't make an iota of difference to me or anyone else...

Yes and no. On another thread you mentioned you couldn't carry out a weapons handling or assembly drill because you thought you knew a better way to do it. If you'd been a recruit that might have jeopardised an entire career in the Forces.

I didn't join the Army or the Royal Marines.

I joined the Royal Navy as a electronics engineer and excelled at it. My "issues" helped me, and helped me very well indeed.

One of my reports, my boss (Lt Commander Walker) described my approach to defects and fixing them as "worrying" them as a dog would worry a rabbit. Once I got my teeth into a problem, I would obsess about it and I wouldn't let go until it was fixed ............even if I was working round the clock.

We all have talents and attributes. It's a matter of luck or maybe design that we can be in a job that exploits these talents. My job in the RN exploited mine excellently.

[Ben@Forest]

I didn't join the Army or the Royal Marines....

I joined the Royal Navy as a electronics engineer and excelled at it. My "issues" helped me, and helped me very well indeed.

I'm sure everything you say about your career is true, but it's not really about you. All military personnel are trained in the use of small arms, chefs, clerks, bandsmen and all sailors.

If a young recruit can't or won't follow a prescribed drill he or she is unlikely to pass basic training. You could get away with it because you were already in a senior rank and were well thought of - but that doesn't therefore work for everyone.

Incidentally it's worth noting that in WW2 at the Battle of Kohima hard and bloody infantry fighting for several days included men of a mobile laundry unit. Anyone in the forces might end up needing to use a rifle.

[seph]

What a great thread! Thanks for starting it Skyhawk

[Tangled Metal]

If you live with ADHD, you might have problems paying attention, concentrating on one task or organizing things. You might make careless mistakes at work or frequently forget things. This group of symptoms is called inattention.

When someone pointed out that I might have ADHD it's this part that convinced me. At work in meetings I have real trouble staying in the room. By that I mean I can't concentrate on the discussion. I've learnt how to get back into the room when someone asks be a question. I look a fool at times though.

At school that's called daydreaming and in what's more called reception that earnt me a bit of corporal punishment (over the knee was the teacher's preferred method). Those days understanding of these things was like Cugels understanding. Namely there isn't an illness or disorder. ADHD never existed when I was a kid and probably needed help to start. I used to zone out so much. My mum used to leave me to it pre-school. She told me about how I would sit on the floor leaning against the sofa staring at the fireplace for most of the time between lunch and teatime. She got worried and pestered the authorities so much they relented and sent me to a child psychologist. Diagnosis very clever but very lazy child. Will do well or very badly of he's not stimulated in school.

Careless mistakes is completely me. Forgetting things? I don't actually forget things just choose not to remember them if that makes sense.

I've read so much about ADHD and so many symptoms are describing my tasks. I've read other's experience with ADHD and with getting a diagnosis and treatment.

I tend to think of it less an illness more disorder. Illness implies a treatment is possible. Disorders implies is just you and you're stuck with it.

I'm sorry Cugel you're wrong.

The op is right. You have it and there's no choice in that. It's with you all your life. One of the big requirements to get an ADHD is that it's debilitating. You're struggling with it in some way or another.

ADHD has advantages. You're living with chaos so when here really is chaos then you're in normal and reacting when others are still trying to understand he situation.

In my case I've got a lifelong story of inattention, impulsivity problems and restlessness. Right now just restlessness means I'm watching TV and typing on my phone on his forum. I've also got a side order if working out my day tomorrow, trying to plan the day at work. If I don't do more than one thing I'm restless.

Self diagnosis? I don't believe in that at all. However because of the excellent way he nhs is mismanaged and not supported financially sufficiently well there's very very little chance of getting a diagnosis without years of pestering your gp about it. In the absence of a prospect of a diagnosis you have to self diagnose at some point.

[Mick F]

All military personnel are trained in the use of small arms, chefs, clerks, bandsmen and all sailors.

They are NOW, but for the first 25years of my service, they weren't.

We learned to fire them, but not stripping them down in accordance with the specific routine of the SA80.
For all my time until the last couple of years I was in, we had SLR rifles (Belgian FN). Easy peasy and it mattered not if you followed a specific routine or not.

The issue with the SA80 requires you to remove an item before another item due to a spring. By doing it the correct way, there isn't a risk of the spring flying out. Part of the instructions warn you to do it correctly because it's natural and easier to do it wrongly.

The problem they had with me, was that I knew all about it and was able to do it "incorrectly" without risk of loosing the spring due to my dexterity and intelligence. The Army and the RMs have to follow orders without question. I was questioning it and showing it could be done quicker, easier, safely and simpler ..................... but they objected to it.

[Cugel]

If you live with ADHD, you might have problems paying attention, concentrating on one task or organizing things. You might make careless mistakes at work or frequently forget things. This group of symptoms is called inattention.

When someone pointed out that I might have ADHD it's this part that convinced me. At work in meetings I have real trouble staying in the room. By that I mean I can't concentrate on the discussion. I've learnt how to get back into the room when someone asks be a question. I look a fool at times though.

At school that's called daydreaming and in what's more called reception that earnt me a bit of corporal punishment (over the knee was the teacher's preferred method). Those days understanding of these things was like Cugels understanding. Namely there isn't an illness or disorder. ADHD never existed when I was a kid and probably needed help to start. I used to zone out so much. My mum used to leave me to it pre-school. She told me about how I would sit on the floor leaning against the sofa staring at the fireplace for most of the time between lunch and teatime. She got worried and pestered the authorities so much they relented and sent me to a child psychologist. Diagnosis very clever but very lazy child. Will do well or very badly of he's not stimulated in school.

Careless mistakes is completely me. Forgetting things? I don't actually forget things just choose not to remember them if that makes sense.

I've read so much about ADHD and so many symptoms are describing my tasks. I've read other's experience with ADHD and with getting a diagnosis and treatment.

I tend to think of it less an illness more disorder. Illness implies a treatment is possible. Disorders implies is just you and you're stuck with it.

I'm sorry Cugel you're wrong.

The op is right. You have it and there's no choice in that. It's with you all your life. One of the big requirements to get an ADHD is that it's debilitating. You're struggling with it in some way or another.

ADHD has advantages. You're living with chaos so when here really is chaos then you're in normal and reacting when others are still trying to understand he situation.

In my case I've got a lifelong story of inattention, impulsivity problems and restlessness. Right now just restlessness means I'm watching TV and typing on my phone on his forum. I've also got a side order if working out my day tomorrow, trying to plan the day at work. If I don't do more than one thing I'm restless.

Self diagnosis? I don't believe in that at all. However because of the excellent way he nhs is mismanaged and not supported financially sufficiently well there's very very little chance of getting a diagnosis without years of pestering your gp about it. In the absence of a prospect of a diagnosis you have to self diagnose at some point.

Perhaps your ADHD is preventing you reading my admittedly long & tedious posts. I'll just mention, then, that I don't deny the existence of a syndrome or condition now named ADHD. I'm only suggesting that it's a category-error to call it an illness.

Are you sick, then? Must you be cured, put in quarantine, drugged to a condition that is acceptable to others? Or are you just inclined to various irresistible modes of behaviour that the rest of us should understand and cater to?

If I had ADHD I would much prefer the latter classification. If you're "sick" or "ill" that brings a lot of baggage with it that may be the very antithesis of how ADHD might be best dealt with by the person who has it and the people who interface with them.

In Yankland, ADHD is often diagnosed and treated with heavy duty drugs such as ritalin. The diagnoses are often just a cover for forcing the drug down the neck of annoying teenagers, who do not really have ADHD. Those who do have ADHD are often being "treated" just to shut them up, not to help them.

In addition, some now do excuse their choice (which genuine ADHD does not provide) of some unsociable behaviours that they merely indulge in. You may find yourself unable to meet certain social norms because you have ADHD. Others eschew the same social norms only because they want to. Let's call it "man-ADHD" (as in man-flu).

****
If we're to have a conversation, it would be helpful if you could trouble yourself to understand what I'm actually saying, rather than assuming something else because that's convenient to you.

Cugel

[reohn2]

[

The problem they had with me, was that I knew all about it and was able to do it "incorrectly" without risk of loosing the spring due to my dexterity and intelligence. The Army and the RMs have to follow orders without question. I was questioning it and showing it could be done quicker, easier, safely and simpler ..................... but they objected to it.

The problem for the armed forces is that not everyone is at the same level of intelligence or dexterity,so the system of whatever has to cater for the lowest common denominator.

Example:- last time we were on the ferry from Hull to Zebrugge there was a group of about forty Belgian soldier on board.It occured to me that they live in a country with three languages,so I asked the commanding officer which language they officially used,he said whichever is convenient and if one soldier only speaks one language the whole detachment speaking that language.
Simple answers to simple problems

[Mick F]

Daughter2 was at the local school and a lad in the class had ADHD and it was found out that certain foods or certain activities triggered an "episode". They also found out, that giving him a banana calmed him down again.

Whenever we eat a banana, we always think of him.