Hydrogen Vehicles

[Mick F]

........ Consumption produces waste, different patterns of consumption will produce different waste, but the present levels are not sustainable and we're just going to mess around at the edges until it's way too late. There's no profit in reducing consumption and profit makes the world go round.

This was the major part of our conversation in the pub garden yesterday.

I suggested that the worst thing that happened to the human race, was that we went into farming instead of being hunter gatherers. Farming led to manufacturing led to the industrial revolution.

[bovlomov]

I suggested that the worst thing that happened to the human race, was that we went into farming instead of being hunter gatherers. Farming led to manufacturing led to the industrial revolution.

But look how happy it has made us!

[al_yrpal]

The lack of vision for change(or should that be charge?)is incredible.

Its not lack of vision, its realism developed over 40 years designing making and delivering machines and equipment that works and keeps on working reliably all over the world in mines, quarries, power stations, chemical plants, loading terminals, supermarkets, ships, aircraft, shopping centres, printing works etc etc. Its all very well to be an armchair or keyboard dreamer but actually delivering practical solutions successfully is somewhat harder and not to be underestimated. All this and the political will and the money are additional hurdles too. Are we there yet? No....

Al

[Mick F]

^^^
Wot he said.

Considering I'm pushing very very very late 60s, I doubt I shall ever own an EV - hydrogen or battery.
Considering both our daughters are in their 40s, I doubt they will either.

Our grandson is nine. Maybe he might by the time he's middle-aged.

[Hobbs1951]

Hydroflex - Google it.

John.

Done that. There appear to be at least 4 companies called Hydroflex, none with obvious connection to H or EV.

Here

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... otive.html

There are many other links, popular and scientific.

John.

[roubaixtuesday]

Discussing all this in the pub garden yesterday evening, it was pointed out to me that solar panels have a limited life-span as they degrade over the years and become less efficient. Newer ones are better than older ones, but they will all degrade. Some are 25years old now and produce less than 50% of their original output.

Main problem is that no-one has worked out what to do with the millions of solar panels when they've completed their useful life.

It's just possible that the pub is not the best source of information on solar panel lifecycle

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/ ... -recycling

Excellent!
Thank you.

Question:
Solar panels cost money to buy and install. The equipment to connect to the mains costs money to buy and install.
From then on, the power they produce is free.
Then, you have to remove it all when it's all at then of its useful life.
Then, you have to recycle it all.
Then, you have to fit new ones etc etc
Repeat ad infinitum.

How much does that cost minus the power produced?
I reckon it's not a simple answer.

It won't surprise you that you're not the first person to ask this.

There are two concepts used to judge this.

Firstly, the levelised cost of power. That's how much it costs in $ to produce each kwh of power over the whole of the lifecycle.

Secondly, the energy returned on energy invested (eroei). That's the ratio of how much energy you get out over the whole lifecycle divided by how much you put in.

As you suggest, these are not at all simple to calculate.
If you Google them you can find comparisons for various power sources. For solar, they will vary a lot by location [edit] and scale of the installation.

[merseymouth]

Hi all, The car issue will soon be over if Mayor of London has his way?
Saw something interesting from his big plan, car parks at railway station will be taken over for housing development sites! Don't ask for citation as my head hurts, had a bad morning? Went for a trundle on the trike locked it to Sheffield rack whilst I went into WH Smith's. Came out only to find I didn't have the appropriate key with me, many locks so picked a weenie cable one.
Upshot, had to call SWMBO to travel into town with a hacksaw, for the cable not the trike .
Lot of phones being used by strangers to record my embarrassment!
So Mr Khan says homes before car parks, works for me. TTFN MM

[al_yrpal]

Discussing all this in the pub garden yesterday evening, it was pointed out to me that solar panels have a limited life-span as they degrade over the years and become less efficient. Newer ones are better than older ones, but they will all degrade. Some are 25years old now and produce less than 50% of their original output.

Main problem is that no-one has worked out what to do with the millions of solar panels when they've completed their useful life.

It's just possible that the pub is not the best source of information on solar panel lifecycle

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/ ... -recycling

Excellent!
Thank you.

Question:
Solar panels cost money to buy and install. The equipment to connect to the mains costs money to buy and install.
From then on, the power they produce is free.
Then, you have to remove it all when it's all at then of its useful life.
Then, you have to recycle it all.
Then, you have to fit new ones etc etc
Repeat ad infinitum.

How much does that cost minus the power produced?
I reckon it's not a simple answer.

There speaks someone with Engineering training not just a keyboard warrior continually consulting half the story from Google...congrats. You did forget maintenance and cleaning though...

Al

[bovlomov]

Hi all, The car issue will soon be over if Mayor of London has his way?
Saw something interesting from his big plan, car parks at railway station will be taken over for housing development sites! Don't ask for citation as my head hurts, had a bad morning?

I haven't any citations either, but I do know there are plans to build on land at two tube stations near me. In the case of High Barnet, the plan is to build on land presently used for builders' storage, rather than the car park. There's almost no light industrial or storage land left in the area. Tradesmen are expected to move further and further out of the capital.

[Mick F]

Hi all, The car issue will soon be over if Mayor of London has his way?

You mean the car issue in London will be over.

London doesn't need cars for personal use. They have busses and the Underground, and taxis, and trains. It's flat there, so they have bikes too.

Come out into the provinces, and we have basically none of that.

[PDQ Mobile]

The lack of vision for change(or should that be charge?)is incredible.

Its not lack of vision, its realism developed over 40 years designing making and delivering machines and equipment that works and keeps on working reliably all over the world in mines, quarries, power stations, chemical plants, loading terminals, supermarkets, ships, aircraft, shopping centres, printing works etc etc. Its all very well to be an armchair or keyboard dreamer but actually delivering practical solutions successfully is somewhat harder and not to be underestimated. All this and the political will and the money are additional hurdles too. Are we there yet? No....

Al

Some of it is lack of vision though.
And some of it is vested and shareholder interest.
Notable being the lack of electrification and investment in our railways.
It could have all been so different.
When copper was still cheap for example.

[RickH]

^^^
Wot he said.

Considering I'm pushing very very very late 60s, I doubt I shall ever own an EV - hydrogen or battery.
Considering both our daughters are in their 40s, I doubt they will either.

Our grandson is nine. Maybe he might by the time he's middle-aged.

Personally I think the change will come remarkably quickly. EVs are much cheaper to run (businesses are switching to electric options for the overall economics rather than eco reasons - those are an added bonus). Once economies of scale make the purchase price similar, or cheaper, than ICE models I think you will see the bottom fall out of the ICE market quite rapidly.

I think increasing numbers of urban dwellers, particularly the younger ones, don't see much point in owning a car at all. Our son, now in his mid 30s, only owned a car for about a year when he had a job that wasn't feasible to travel to by public transport from where he was living. He occasionally rents a car if other means of transport aren't available & /or practical.

[reohn2]

The lack of vision for change(or should that be charge?)is incredible.

Its not lack of vision, its realism developed over 40 years designing making and delivering machines and equipment that works and keeps on working reliably all over the world in mines, quarries, power stations, chemical plants, loading terminals, supermarkets, ships, aircraft, shopping centres, printing works etc etc. Its all very well to be an armchair or keyboard dreamer but actually delivering practical solutions successfully is somewhat harder and not to be underestimated. All this and the political will and the money are additional hurdles too. Are we there yet? No....

Al

The power source is there,the sun,the technology to turn it into electricity is there,the means to transport that power about is there in LiOn batteries.
What's not there is the will to change the status quo because the rich and powerful hold the current power source,oil,until that power dwindles no other power will be the main power source.
Everyone's roof is a potential power source,it was the Tories that stopped the subsidies to the householder for such power.
Everywhere I go I see vast expanses of industrial and retail outlets roofs that could be contributing to the nation's need to rely on oil and gas.
There is also wind and wave power not being tapped to their greatest potential
It is clean green and readily available.
We know how but profit gets in the way of that progress,if not in total then in a large part.

Please desist with "keyboard dreamer" insinuations as if no one knows anything but you,it becomes boring after a while.

[Mick F]

Personally I think the change will come remarkably quickly. EVs are much cheaper to run (businesses are switching to electric options for the overall economics rather than eco reasons - those are an added bonus). Once economies of scale make the purchase price similar, or cheaper, than ICE models I think you will see the bottom fall out of the ICE market quite rapidly.

I admire your optimism.

It needs the economies of scale to happen very very quickly indeed and even then, the EV won't be universal. Maybe in cities, but out in the sticks they won't.

[al_yrpal]

The lack of vision for change(or should that be charge?)is incredible.

Its not lack of vision, its realism developed over 40 years designing making and delivering machines and equipment that works and keeps on working reliably all over the world in mines, quarries, power stations, chemical plants, loading terminals, supermarkets, ships, aircraft, shopping centres, printing works etc etc. Its all very well to be an armchair or keyboard dreamer but actually delivering practical solutions successfully is somewhat harder and not to be underestimated. All this and the political will and the money are additional hurdles too. Are we there yet? No....

Al

Some of it is lack of vision though.
And some of it is vested and shareholder interest.
Notable being the lack of electrification and investment in our railways.
It could have all been so different.
When copper was still cheap for example.

Electrifying the Great Western was for a long time calculated to be totally uneconomical. But, when they recently started they realised too late that it was still extremely difficult and totally uneconomic. Someone underestimated the task and got the sums wrong. Vested interests are always a barrier but now its publicly funded raitrack fouling up and we are all paying. Our society is driven by economics not by the spirit that dug the channel tunnel, produced Concorde, sequenced the genome and made it universally available foc, or put men on the moon. The Lunatic Express is an early example...but thats still a basket case. In our tiny island electric vehicles will have a role but when one thinks of crossing the Mojave Desert or the Steppes in a vehicle, or even driving down to the Med what, with human needs and nature in mind, will still be capable of doing that? Steak and Kidney flying high.

Al