Hydrogen Vehicles

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 1 Jul 2019, 12:06pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
For a train it makes no sense, since you can electrify the lines pretty easily, and have some battery storage if required for emergencies (like braking after the grid gets cut off)


Exactly.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby al_yrpal » 1 Jul 2019, 12:16pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
For a train it makes no sense, since you can electrify the lines pretty easily, and have some battery storage if required for emergencies (like braking after the grid gets cut off)


:lol: Tell that to the folk who are electrifying the Great Western!

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 1 Jul 2019, 12:28pm

al_yrpal wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
For a train it makes no sense, since you can electrify the lines pretty easily, and have some battery storage if required for emergencies (like braking after the grid gets cut off)


:lol: Tell that to the folk who are electrifying the Great Western!

Al


Yes we will tell it them.

There is a wealth of expetience in Europe electrifying railways, perhaps they should go over and get a few tips!!

I thought the costs looked extortionate too.

That there are some issues with low bridge and tunnel infrastructure should have been picked up in the initial planning stage surely?
Or was someone sleeping on the job (for the boys)?
Problems are there to be solved.

Otherwise one positions pylons and then strings wires.
It's a straightforward job for well trained professionals and it lasts a very long time too once installed with high quality materials, without much need for much maintenance.

Electric trains are the future and they are fantastic. Fast accelerating, quiet, regenerative braking and low pollution.
Solar and wind powered trains, you know it makes sense.
Mr Grayling on the other hand........

mercalia
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby mercalia » 1 Jul 2019, 1:32pm

so the latest thing, silent electric cars not allowed. :lol: I hope we are given a choice, I want a car that sounds like a Roller or a Bentley or even better a Ferrarri 8) even if it looks like a mini :lol:

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bigjim
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby bigjim » 1 Jul 2019, 2:04pm

Back in the 1970s I worked for a while as a Fork Lift driver. I drove a huge FLT capable of lifting large Cable reels weighing many tons. It was electric. The battery was massive but capable of a full 12 hour shift. Towards the end of the shift I had to crane this battery out and replace it with it's twin that had been charging for 12 hours. You'd think they could do this with large vehicles such as buses, so little time off the road.
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kwackers
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby kwackers » 1 Jul 2019, 2:07pm

bigjim wrote:Back in the 1970s I worked for a while as a Fork Lift driver. I drove a huge FLT capable of lifting large Cable reels weighing many tons. It was electric. The battery was massive but capable of a full 12 hour shift. Towards the end of the shift I had to crane this battery out and replace it with it's twin that had been charging for 12 hours. You'd think they could do this with large vehicles such as buses, so little time off the road.

I guess they don't need to because the buses spend overnight in the garage and the batteries are capable of running them all day.

The original London electric buses circa 1907 had replaceable batteries - they could swap them in 3 minutes.
Back then though the range was only around 50 miles so they couldn't make it through a single shift.

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bigjim
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby bigjim » 1 Jul 2019, 2:24pm

kwackers wrote:
bigjim wrote:Back in the 1970s I worked for a while as a Fork Lift driver. I drove a huge FLT capable of lifting large Cable reels weighing many tons. It was electric. The battery was massive but capable of a full 12 hour shift. Towards the end of the shift I had to crane this battery out and replace it with it's twin that had been charging for 12 hours. You'd think they could do this with large vehicles such as buses, so little time off the road.

I guess they don't need to because the buses spend overnight in the garage and the batteries are capable of running them all day.

The original London electric buses circa 1907 had replaceable batteries - they could swap them in 3 minutes.
Back then though the range was only around 50 miles so they couldn't make it through a single shift.

Do they spend that long in a garage? Round here the buses are running till about midnight and are out again at about 5am. Do London buses run all night? Then there is the likes of National long distance buses which probably run 24hrs. The same for a lot of Taxis. A 3 min battery swap sounds like a good idea still.
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kwackers
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby kwackers » 1 Jul 2019, 2:35pm

bigjim wrote:Do they spend that long in a garage? Round here the buses are running till about midnight and are out again at about 5am. Do London buses run all night? Then there is the likes of National long distance buses which probably run 24hrs. The same for a lot of Taxis. A 3 min battery swap sounds like a good idea still.

I get the impression a lot of city buses spend most of the night asleep. They'll still charge pretty quickly - the one's that used the Tesla storage batteries could charge in an hour or so.
It used to be that most buses I used would hit a 'terminus' where they'd sit for 10-20 mins. They could in theory charge there, they wouldn't need a huge charge - they're probably only travelling 10-20 miles or so to the other end.

The really long distance stuff obviously wouldn't suit electric - at least not yet.
Taxis otoh are another thing that often sit around doing nothing - having chargers at taxi ranks would probably sort them out plus most of the mileages tend to be short trips.

I think to an extent each thing needs looking at on it's own merits. There's no denying though that the typical use case for private vehicles mostly suits electric.

reohn2
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2019, 7:00pm

Buses and taxis operating in large conurbations spend a lot of time moving slowly or stopped,eg; our bus into town,3miles away takes between 15 and 20minutes due to stops and traffic,that's between 9 and 12mph average.
I'd be surprised if any bus does much more than 15mph average and when it's stopped it doesn't use any power,not so diesels or gas powered vehicles.
So local buses running even a 12hour tour @ 15mph average only do 180miles per day.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Jul 2019, 7:17pm

Buses may have a planned pause at the terminus, but if a bus is late it goes straight back to get back on time, no time for a ciggie or to charge up

I know a bit about buses and trams, but do we have anyone here with more knowledge, maybe as a bus driver? :wink:
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Ben@Forest » 1 Jul 2019, 7:19pm

It's not entirely true to believe that a bus with a low average speed therefore is very fuel efficient. The repeated acceleration to get back up to speed uses fuel just like an normal engine. There may be some recovery in braking or deacceleration but not that much.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby roubaixtuesday » 1 Jul 2019, 7:28pm

Ben@Forest wrote:It's not entirely true to believe that a bus with a low average speed therefore is very fuel efficient. The repeated acceleration to get back up to speed uses fuel just like an normal engine. There may be some recovery in braking or deacceleration but not that much.


This is exactly where e vehicles are much better due to regenerative braking. Efficiency figures quoted for the full cycle are about 60%, which is pretty significant.

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 1 Jul 2019, 7:29pm

It's a huge plus for leccy vehicles and trains that no fuel is used when stationary.

reohn2
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2019, 7:39pm

Ben@Forest wrote:It's not entirely true to believe that a bus with a low average speed therefore is very fuel efficient. The repeated acceleration to get back up to speed uses fuel just like an normal engine. There may be some recovery in braking or deacceleration but not that much.

I take your point ,but the point being made is that buses on local routes don't do much mileage.
And even if a battery doesn't last a full days tour if it can be changed at say a designated change n charge point by the driver in say 10minutes,such a change can easily be built into the bus' schedule.
IMO we've got begin thinking outside the present box,vehicles may not have the same range as IC but the problems aren't insurmountable.
Another point is we need to conserve the fossil fuels in the ground for vehicles that need such resources that can't operate on electric in say farming,forestry,and freight where nothing else is possible 9ther than diesel,otherwise the whole system grinds to a halt.
The bottom line is we've had it too good for too long and we need to start realising that fact,politicians,certainly in the UK,aren't facing up to facts.As a result the populous generally has only a vague idea what it all really means and how the impact will have on everyone's everyday life.
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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 1 Jul 2019, 7:59pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:For a train it makes no sense, since you can electrify the lines pretty easily, and have some battery storage if required for emergencies (like braking after the grid gets cut off)
al_yrpal wrote: :lol: Tell that to the folk who are electrifying the Great Western!
PDQ Mobile wrote:There is a wealth of expetience in Europe electrifying railways, perhaps they should go over and get a few tips!!
Have you any idea what the railways are like down here?

Having been on the railways in Europe, the terrain is nothing like it is down here. It's bad enough cycling down here without building railways and then electrifying them. All the good easy ones were removed by Beeching.

Take the train from Exeter all the way to Penzance, let alone the branch lines, and you'll see the issues.
Mick F. Cornwall