Hydrogen Vehicles

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brynpoeth
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby brynpoeth » 3 Jul 2019, 5:44am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mick F wrote:I'm repeating what I hear.
As far as I know, the geography and the curves and narrowness of the rail beds plus the fact that Penzance is at the end of the line make the whole idea of electrification non-viable.

There's no way that they'll electrify the Cornish and Devon-ish branch lines even though the trains are packed at commuter times and with summer tourists.


Well you hear proper nonsense.
Down the Brexit ban pub was it?

There is no reason why any railway curve, narrow cutting or steep gradient cannot be electrified.

Tunnel and bridge heights are more of an issue but not insurmountable.

Maybe Brunel was wrong
The Cornish railways could be upgraded to metre gauge to solve the problems of tunnels, curves, space for wires
Often enough one has to change at Plymouth even now :wink:
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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 3 Jul 2019, 7:11am

PDQ Mobile wrote:Well you can't blame EU Objective 1, can you?
Or you could get accused of hypocrisy.


There is no mainline railway that could not be electrified, that is my opinion.
Narrow cuttings simply require different cable carriers.
No curve is too steep.
What are these issues? I ask again. Citation?

And try not paying for it!!
In twenty years it's costs will have gone even more through the roof and cheap fossil fuels will be ever scarcer and hence more expensive.
Electrifying it would future proof it for the next generations.Our grandchildren.

Goods and people in and out of Cornwall sustainably for the foreseeable future.
You know it makes sense!
I agree with you completely and totally.

No-one will pay for it. Not saying it can't be done, but no-one will pay for it.
Mick F. Cornwall

Ben@Forest
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Ben@Forest » 3 Jul 2019, 8:16am

Vorpal wrote:Not viable = insufficient political will


That's a very glib assertion. By your rationale then any proposed new rail line will work if there sufficient will for it to be built.

Considerations like centres of population, where people travel to for work and what the lines connect to make railways viable. Sometimes you'd have to run a lot of associated projects to deliver that. There are plenty of people on here who'd scream pretty loudly if a new line required a huge subsidy for very little passenger uptake and no discernible green benefit.

I'm not saying that some of those problems don't exist on the current network, but just as Beeching wasn't all wrong, building or reopening lines anywhere isn't right.

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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 3 Jul 2019, 8:44am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Not viable = insufficient political will


That's a very glib assertion. By your rationale then any proposed new rail line will work if there sufficient will for it to be built.

Considerations like centres of population, where people travel to for work and what the lines connect to make railways viable. Sometimes you'd have to run a lot of associated projects to deliver that. There are plenty of people on here who'd scream pretty loudly if a new line required a huge subsidy for very little passenger uptake and no discernible green benefit.

I'm not saying that some of those problems don't exist on the current network, but just as Beeching wasn't all wrong, building or reopening lines anywhere isn't right.
Vorpal is correct.

If there was the political will to do something, it must therefore be a good idea. There wouldn't be a political will to do something pointless.
Scrap HS2, scrap Heathrow's new runway, and reverse all the Beaching cuts is my will, but I don't think that there would be sufficient political will to do it.

Whole areas of UK have no railways any more. Put them back, and people would use them.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jul 2019, 9:38am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Not viable = insufficient political will


That's a very glib assertion.

Yes it is. Although I meant in this particular case, I think it applies to lots of things.

It's not to suggest that everything should be considered such. But I have a hard time believing that the electrification of rail in the UK is not viable.

It's not viable because public transport has been sacrificed to the god of the motor vehicle. It's not viable because of austerity. It's not viable because the 'nuclear deterent' is considered more deserving of funds. I could add to the list, but my point is made.
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reohn2
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2019, 9:49am

Mick F wrote: ..........Whole areas of UK have no railways any more. Put them back, and people would use them.

You forget one thing Mick,for anything to "work" in present day UK it has to show a profit.
The idea of a service for the good of the people isn't a consideration where the market rules :?
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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 3 Jul 2019, 10:31am

Tories.
Privatisation.

If we had a succession of Labour governments, we would ALL be better off, and not just the few.
Pigs might fly though.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Jul 2019, 1:08pm

brynpoeth wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mick F wrote:I'm repeating what I hear.
As far as I know, the geography and the curves and narrowness of the rail beds plus the fact that Penzance is at the end of the line make the whole idea of electrification non-viable.

There's no way that they'll electrify the Cornish and Devon-ish branch lines even though the trains are packed at commuter times and with summer tourists.


Well you hear proper nonsense.
Down the Brexit ban pub was it?

There is no reason why any railway curve, narrow cutting or steep gradient cannot be electrified.

Tunnel and bridge heights are more of an issue but not insurmountable.

Maybe Brunel was wrong
The Cornish railways could be upgraded to metre gauge to solve the problems of tunnels, curves, space for wires
Often enough one has to change at Plymouth even now :wink:


Brunel's original GWR as far as Bristol (at least?) was even wider than standard gauge.
It was replaced by standard gauge in a weekend (!) at the turn of the last century.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gauge.43523/

Gauge is no barrier to electrification, broadly speaking. No pun intended!

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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 3 Jul 2019, 1:31pm

The works have started in Tavistock.
Bovis Homes are building an estate of houses as you reach Tavy from the west on the A390.
Just here on the right.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.54047 ... 312!8i6656

Part of the agreement to build these houses, is to build a relief road and a new railway station and reopen the line to Bere Alston where it will join the existing Tamar Valley Line to Plymouth.

I very much doubt that this will be electrified. I would like to see the line opened as an electric tram line, but I doubt anything like that would be considered. It'll be diesel DMUs just like the TVL.

Read this. At present, I can't find anything better online.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavistock_railway_station

PS
Old BBC News item.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-28943931
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Jul 2019, 2:36pm

You could start a campaign!
Electric and sustainable now!!!

Or at least campaign make sure that the trackbed, tunnels and bridges are done in such a way that electrification, when come it as it must, would be totally straightforward.

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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 3 Jul 2019, 4:58pm

Yes, I agree, but can Shillamill Viaduct and Shillamill Tunnel cope with overhead cables?
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1246222
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26110559
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al_yrpal
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby al_yrpal » 3 Jul 2019, 5:01pm

How will they cope with William Froudes skew tunnel?

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Jul 2019, 7:08pm

Mick F wrote:Yes, I agree, but can Shillamill Viaduct and Shillamill Tunnel cope with overhead cables?
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1246222
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26110559

Why ever not?
The viaduct looks like child's play.
Nice solid granite.

Tunnels of restricted hieght are more problematic but solutions are there if there's a will.

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RickH
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby RickH » 3 Jul 2019, 7:56pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Tunnels of restricted hieght are more problematic but solutions are there if there's a will.

The solution, at least for the Farnworth Tunnel on the Manchester to Preston electrification, was to rebore the tunnel after first filling it with concrete. They found running sand unexpectedly in the process of reboring which caused considerable delay! (as did unmarked mine workings when they were putting up the gantries further north on the line!). Dozens of bridges needed to be replaced too to fit the overhead wiring. Long after the original completion date electric services are only just getting going.

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby PDQ Mobile » 4 Jul 2019, 10:48am

It is quite clear to me that on the old British rail infrastructure there will be difficulties to install overhead power for electrification.
Vast swathes of the network are however pretty straightforward. (No pun intended)
Install gantries at trackside and the hang wires and trackside transformers etc.

The thread diversion (sorry Mick) started because of the word "vision".

Vision is not short term gain and profit for shareholders and bigwigs, but rather (especially in this instance) an attempt to see into the future in a way that will benefit all of the next generation(s)of our society.

Electrifying the rail network fulfills that ideal because of it's many advantages; low pollution at source, simpler maintenance, quiet, high speed and acceleration capabilities and last but not least, the ability to use many diverse sources of power.
With the new renewables now ever more on stream and advances in digitalized management of power this is as future proof as it gets.

A Vision of a low carbon efficient rail system serving us all.

Nothing fancy but good solid tried and tested overhead wire technology for which everything is already in commercial production in Europe.
......

These last Tory Govts have been more short term in their thinking than many others,and that really is saying something!
Self serving and dogmatic.
Visionless and greedy.

They undid much of the proposed infrastructure investment after the 2008 crash by Darling (an underrated Chancellor IMV), immediately on gaining office, knee jerk stuff and poorly thought through.

HS2 was lauded by Osbourne as a saviour of rail, while the broader network was allowed to stagnate.

I am not an expert but the upgrading and widening of pinch points on the existing infrastructure, plus full electrification would, I feel, have been probably better use of the money.