Hydrogen Vehicles

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Cugel
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Cugel » 30 Jun 2019, 7:20am

The usual right-wing response to attempts to conserve the environment, human health and other things that aren't in awe of the mobile stinkin' tin cans with a get-out-my-way thruster aboard.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... one-u-turn

How did the so-called conservatives ever come to this mind state, wherein they wish to conserve only that which is destructive? It must be the greatest ever human cognitive dissonance; a paradoxical thunk of immense stupidity.

Cugel

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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 30 Jun 2019, 7:23am

I can see that EVs in towns and cities where people commute would work so they can charge at their place of work.
I cannot see that EVs will replace ICE nationally for many many years.

How can you drive from one end of the country to the other in an EV?
What's the mileage available? 200? 300? I bet that will halve in the winter using the heater, or in the heat of the summer using the air con, let alone having the headlights on. Let's say 150miles.

Leave Plymouth heading for Glasgow - a drive I used to do fortnightly overnight - it's a 500mile drive. I did it basically non stop in a Peugeot 205. Stopping to recharge three times using an EV would be impossible. It used to take me six hours to drive to Glasgow, you'd have to double that driving an EV.
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby roubaixtuesday » 30 Jun 2019, 8:32am

Mick F wrote:Leave Plymouth heading for Glasgow - a drive I used to do fortnightly overnight - it's a 500mile drive. I did it basically non stop in a Peugeot 205. Stopping to recharge three times using an EV would be impossible. It used to take me six hours to drive to Glasgow, you'd have to double that driving an EV.


1. See viewtopic.php?f=15&t=130975&start=105#p1369999

2. Your drive was endangering others. It's no better than motorists endangering cyclists with close passes.

If you follow rule 91 of highway code, you'd be able to recharge without any delay at all with latest charging tech.

A minimum break of at least 15 minutes after every two hours of driving is recommended


Not all the infrastructure is in place for this, and not all e vehicles are yet capable of it, but in principle it is already possible.

rfryer
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby rfryer » 30 Jun 2019, 8:33am

At the moment, it's true, an electric car can't travel extended distances as quickly as an ICE driven by a driver who never tires.

But is that really a requirement? Should we take the view that because we have been able to do something in the past, that "right" should never be withdrawn, even if it's in the name of stopping catastrophic climate change? Think Concord - the human race has found ways to cope with not traveling over the Atlantic at supersonic speeds.

I sometimes wonder if there won't be objectors to EVs right up to the point when they are able to match or beat ICE cars in every possible area. They are already (IMO) more refined, more pleasant to drive, cheaper to run, much better for the environment. For lots of use cases they actually save time - no dedicated refueling stops, less servicing.

They are a different beast to an ICE car, with different comprises, but for most use, and current prices aside, they stand up well. And in all likelihood, the technical capabilities will improve, while prices drop.

Maybe we'll just have to accept that traveling the length of the country is an activity best suited to public transport, or a road trip. I say this as someone who has happily driven 5 hour stretches in the past, but I believe that the only reason I did this is because I could - there were alternatives, including not putting myself into the position of needing to make the journey in the first place.

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Jun 2019, 8:38am

Mick F changed the laws of physics to average 83 mph :?
In an ev, if the laws of physics are not changed, one would be obliged to take several breaks, plusplus!
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merseymouth
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby merseymouth » 30 Jun 2019, 9:09am

Morning Playmates :), One simple thing would make it possible to square the circle?
Stop thinking about personal transport modules owned by the individual, think collective as Vorpal has already said. As some others have also said the railways should not be in the pockets of the greedy, think investment in the rail system and not subsidy as we are currently see things. The time lag in getting new rolling stock into service is chiefly down to the daft body gauging differences between the systems in the UK & Europe, made even worse by the fact that we are almost totally dependent of European makers because we shortsightedly put our home manufacturing capacity to the sword!
For us to get hands on new stock means serious disruption to make production lines to cope with our narrower trains. Dead end thinking by people hell bent on instant profit. Never been a Tory but I'm sounding more like a Trot?
Folk pay chunks of wonga on the drip to have the new horseless carriage in front of the house, but don't appear to truthfully cost in all of the real costs of the car, always telling of the MPG, but forgetting the true cost of the entire package.
I don't own a car, but hire an appropriate vehicle when I need one. Being retired does distort the picture a little, but were I still working a pool or car club would be a better option that the new motor millstone around my neck.
But one size does not fit all in this country, but many folk use the inappropriate lardy car in cities where it does the most harm. Clean up the cities and the rural areas will be quite inventive to make things work for them. IGICB MM

reohn2
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2019, 9:10am

Mick F wrote:I can see that EVs in towns and cities where people commute would work so they can charge at their place of work.
I cannot see that EVs will replace ICE nationally for many many years.

The tipping point to that conundrum will in the present set of circumstances be cost effectiveness,oil won't be any cheaper as the resource becomes more finite.

How can you drive from one end of the country to the other in an EV?
What's the mileage available? 200? 300? I bet that will halve in the winter using the heater, or in the heat of the summer using the air con, let alone having the headlights on. Let's say 150miles.

Leave Plymouth heading for Glasgow - a drive I used to do fortnightly overnight - it's a 500mile drive. I did it basically non stop in a Peugeot 205. Stopping to recharge three times using an EV would be impossible. It used to take me six hours to drive to Glasgow, you'd have to double that driving an EV.

How many people drive from one end of the country to the other on a regular basis none stop?
For a kick off it's dangerous not to stop on a long journey,and it's cheaper and a lot less stressful by train.
The problem is you like Al,are thinking in the present tense with no vision for future travel,there is one of a lack visionaries.

Take a look how China is changing and investing it's green energy production and travel,we are a small country individual travel networks are appallingly inadequate and set to stay that way unless we change our thinking outside the tin box on wheels

Al take note I said changing and not as it is now.

EDIT,posted before reading rfryer and roubiax's posts,gentlemen you're both spot on.
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 Jun 2019, 9:41am, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jun 2019, 9:20am

merseymouth wrote:Morning Playmates :), One simple thing would make it possible to square the circle?
Stop thinking about personal transport modules owned by the individual, think collective as Vorpal has already said. As some others have also said the railways should not be in the pockets of the greedy, think investment in the rail system and not subsidy as we are currently see things. The time lag in getting new rolling stock into service is chiefly down to the daft body gauging differences between the systems in the UK & Europe, made even worse by the fact that we are almost totally dependent of European makers because we shortsightedly put our home manufacturing capacity to the sword!
For us to get hands on new stock means serious disruption to make production lines to cope with our narrower trains. Dead end thinking by people hell bent on instant profit. Never been a Tory but I'm sounding more like a Trot?
Folk pay chunks of wonga on the drip to have the new horseless carriage in front of the house, but don't appear to truthfully cost in all of the real costs of the car, always telling of the MPG, but forgetting the true cost of the entire package.
I don't own a car, but hire an appropriate vehicle when I need one. Being retired does distort the picture a little, but were I still working a pool or car club would be a better option that the new motor millstone around my neck.
But one size does not fit all in this country, but many folk use the inappropriate lardy car in cities where it does the most harm. Clean up the cities and the rural areas will be quite inventive to make things work for them. IGICB MM


The problem stems from the belief by rightwing politicians and stringpullers that collective wealth is somehow wrong and that personal wealth is the holy grail,the hole in that argument is that only a few become wealthy.
Socialism to some is a dirty word,we've had forty odd years of "free market economy" look where it's got us,and by us I mean the whole,the total country.
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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 30 Jun 2019, 9:24am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Mick F changed the laws of physics to average 83 mph :?
Oops!
My mistake! Memory is slipping! :lol:

I used to leave home about 9pm and I was in my digs in Ibrox, Glasgow by soon after 4am.
We used to do a ten day week ........... Tuesday through to the following Thursday. We had Friday and Monday off and our opposite numbers had the other Friday and Monday off. We finished early on the Thursdays and started late on the Tuesdays.

A long drive like that can be very enjoyable and so long as you have a good rest before the off, it's no problem at all. The hard part was driving south on a Thursday afternoon as we always hit the traffic at Brum. We found that coming off the M6 in Staffordshire and taking the Old Roads to join the M5 in Worcestershire was the best and quickest way though the journey down must have taken nine hours or more.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby kwackers » 30 Jun 2019, 9:53am

Mick F wrote:I can see that EVs in towns and cities where people commute would work so they can charge at their place of work.
I cannot see that EVs will replace ICE nationally for many many years.

You keep banging on about this - have you even tried looking at what's happening?
Ring up and try and buy one - you can't. Even the 'OK' EV's have waiting lists.
(If you've got the cash you could buy a Tesla or a Jag though - only 4-10 weeks depending on spec).
Then you've got the huge moves towards EV by car companies - bearing in mind most have been resisting the change and have been forced into action because their IC sales are falling through the floor and their competitors racing ahead because they've already got experience.

Like it or not once EV's hit price parity sales of IC engines will crash, given the typical 4 year lease the car market will turn on it's head very quickly and petrol stations will be closing due to lack of customers, prices will climb as economies of scale fail and you have a feedback loop that will help kill IC.
In ten years time you'll need an app to tell you where the nearest petrol station is and if you live in the sticks - good luck finding one.

If the Norwegians can do it (and look how quick they're moving forward) then on our little island so can we - easily.

Mick F wrote:How can you drive from one end of the country to the other in an EV?
What's the mileage available? 200? 300? I bet that will halve in the winter using the heater, or in the heat of the summer using the air con, let alone having the headlights on. Let's say 150miles.

How about we don't say 150 miles, how about we actually look at how they fare in winter and summer rather than inventing numbers?
Mileages quoted these days are realistic - so much so that folk I know with them regularly do better than the quoted mileage by driving a bit more 'sensibly'.
Yes the mileage does drop in winter (but not summer) but it's usually only 10-20% and getting better as battery chemistry and thermal regulation arrive.
Cars like Tesla's do clever things like when you need to charge and are driving towards the chargers they'll pre-warm the battery so you can start charging at full charge (they can add 70 miles in 5 minutes).

Mick F wrote:Leave Plymouth heading for Glasgow - a drive I used to do fortnightly overnight - it's a 500mile drive. I did it basically non stop in a Peugeot 205. Stopping to recharge three times using an EV would be impossible. It used to take me six hours to drive to Glasgow, you'd have to double that driving an EV.

How about stopping to recharge twice - both not full charges but say 80%.
Ignoring your dodgy maths tbh I've got absolutely no problem if folk couldn't drive 500 miles non-stop. IMO it's too far and I suspect by the time you get to the other end your overall state is equivalent to being half cut despite what you think.
There's no shortage of folk falling off the roads because they nod off. If anything restricted mileage and an enforced stop is a good safety feature.

This thread reminds me of the electric bicycles thread we had on here a few years ago.
Full of naysayers saying they'd never take off, nobody would want one...
Wonder how that worked out?

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Jun 2019, 9:56am

..
Hercule and others are upgrading to kick bikes :wink:
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby roubaixtuesday » 30 Jun 2019, 10:02am

Mick F wrote:A long drive like that can be very enjoyable and so long as you have a good rest before the off, it's no problem at all.


This is, to put it extremely politely, not substantiated by the evidence.

It is extremely dangerous, hence the highway code.

It's like drunk drivers who claim to be more careful thank when sober.

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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Jun 2019, 10:08am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:A long drive like that can be very enjoyable and so long as you have a good rest before the off, it's no problem at all.


This is, to put it extremely politely, not substantiated by the evidence.

It is extremely dangerous, hence the highway code.

It's like drunk drivers who claim to be more careful thank when sober.

Tuesday is right again, operating a semi-guided machine far beyond the times allowed for flying, for example, awful
I think Mick F is referring to memories, many years later :?

On the continent there are still a few trains that take cars, that would be a good alternative
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Mick F
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby Mick F » 30 Jun 2019, 10:38am

Kwackers.
Have you tried looking what's happening?
Nothing here, but seen maybe one Nissan Leaf once and a couple of Renault Zoe. I do look, because I'm very interested in them.

I'd love one and would have one like a shot, but the costs are way out of our pockets, and I doubt the costs will come down for years yet. There will be some secondhand obviously, but unless they are available locally, the locals won't and can't buy them.

How are the busses, vans, tractors and lorries going to fill up with diesel if all the filling stations go? How are the taxis going to do it? Don't tell me that they'll all be EV because IMO it's living in cloud cuckoo land if you think they will.

Best thing for the future is for personal transport to be priced off the roads, but not until we have a good and fully comprehensive public transport system that takes people from where they live to where they want to go. Stop HS2 immediately and use the money to reverse the Beeching cuts. Trams, trains, busses ............. everywhere.

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:A long drive like that can be very enjoyable and so long as you have a good rest before the off, it's no problem at all.

This is, to put it extremely politely, not substantiated by the evidence.
It is extremely dangerous, hence the highway code.
It's like drunk drivers who claim to be more careful thank when sober.
I think you are generalising.

I agree about drink-driving and drug-driving also, but that is a completely different subject and irrelevant to me and my driving.

A long motorway drive can be very enjoyable and if done right you will not nod off but be bright and wide awake and cheerful.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: Hydrogen Vehicles

Postby kwackers » 30 Jun 2019, 12:29pm

Mick F wrote:Kwackers.
Have you tried looking what's happening?
Nothing here, but seen maybe one Nissan Leaf once and a couple of Renault Zoe. I do look, because I'm very interested in them.

Of course I've looked.
My car is coming to the end of its life and I've been interested in getting one for a couple of years.
Trouble is I've left it too late. Suddenly everyone and their dog wants an EV.
A few years ago people like Nissan sold them at a loss in an attempt to get market share - there were brilliant deals around such that now they're available second hand they're not much less than what their owners paid new.
So it looks like I'm stuck with my car for probably 2 could be 3 years because they're simply not available because of the demand.

How are the busses, vans, tractors and lorries going to fill up with diesel if all the filling stations go? How are the taxis going to do it? Don't tell me that they'll all be EV because IMO it's living in cloud cuckoo land if you think they will.

Well, there are lots of electric buses around now - turns out buses don't do that many miles each day. Apparently some bus stations are installing Tesla batteries to trickle charge during the day and dump power to the buses at night.
Vans - plenty of electric vans. For the most part most vans don't actually go that far during the day. I believe the post office have a few and a lot of couriers are using them for the local stuff.
Lorries, no idea. There are electric lorries being demonstrated, there's always hydrogen (your original post) and they may well stay on diesel, it's less of a problem for them if the only places with diesel are truck stops. Personally I think hydrogen is a bit more of a goer for trucks.
Tractors again they could continue on diesel. I believe most farmers simply get it delivered but they could also switch to hydrogen.
As for taxis - you're way behind the curve. Plenty of EV taxis around and those that aren't fully EV are usually hybrid. I believe even the companies that make black cabs have EV versions.

Best thing for the future is for personal transport to be priced off the roads, but not until we have a good and fully comprehensive public transport system that takes people from where they live to where they want to go. Stop HS2 immediately and use the money to reverse the Beeching cuts. Trams, trains, busses ............. everywhere.

You wont get any arguments off me about that, but realistically I doubt it'll happen.
The most likely scenario is dwindling private ownership and more pool cars particularly when self driving cars become a thing.
When that happens I suspect it'll put paid to buses and increase train use because folk can hop in and out of cars at either end of their journeys.
But that is a while off.