Give up flying?

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PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2899
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 16 Aug 2019, 7:51pm

Vorpal wrote: One of the things prevalent in the news on this topic is the amount of additional waste getting into the sea because of the increased weight of electric vehicles. More plastic particles from the tyres and roadways are ending up in the sea because of it.


No Range Rovers or 4x4s in Norway then?
I don't know whether this "extra rubber" because of a little extra weight is that much of a problem?
'Tis but a drop in the ocean (no pun etc) surely?

I see pictures of waterways in Indian cities completely choked with plastic waste.
Now they do have a problem!
Which eventually becomes everybody's problem I suppose.

mattheus
Posts: 714
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby mattheus » 16 Aug 2019, 8:11pm

Freddie wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Freddie wrote: Do we though? I won't dispute we pollute the most per head of the population, but Westerners account for, what, 10% of thereabouts of the world's population.
But we don't act as regions - we act as people; or "heads" as you are counting us.

You can't excuse damage to the environment on the grounds that the region you have been labelled with ("Westerners") just happens to be a small part of humanity. Or that you live in a small country! This is crazy talk!

What next - you'll argue that "Freddie" is quite a rare name, so Freddies can't do any significant harm to the world; therefore you'll do what you like.

It's all those Johns and Mohammeds that are the problem! :lol:
The problem is, I haven't said any of that. This is stuff you have added to what I've said. It is better just to deal with what people have written, than try to read their mind.

Though as you're keen on this kind of thing, whilst you're here, if you can tell me my fortune for the coming weeks, it'd be jolly good of you - should I avoid black cats or approach them? Winning lottery numbers would be handy too.


Surely it is quite clear that I have not invented words and put them in your mouth? My dear chap, I have merely shown you an analogy, to illustrate how absurd your point was. You could consider my exaggeration a type of magnifying glass, applied to your actual words to show their flaws in more detail.

Nothing to do with reading your mind! If I were to attempt this, I would state that maybe you make this odd comment as an attempt to justify being part of the group who DO contribute more pollution *per head* than everyone else on the planet. Is this not something to regret?

pete75
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 17 Aug 2019, 7:44am

Freddie wrote:
661-Pete wrote: Of course this turns on its head the global argument that "we should be eating less meat". This adage applies mostly to the affluent Western world. After all, it's us Westerners that do the most damage...
Do we though? I won't dispute we pollute the most per head of the population, but Westerners account for, what, 10% of thereabouts of the world's population.



And teh Uk produces about 1% of the world's total CO2. In other words what we produce is virtually irrelevant.

brynpoeth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Aug 2019, 7:59am

19.8 is Flying Day in the US
Why do you love flying? :?

My first flight was in a little Cessna, like a minibus with wings, flew over the town where I lived and cycled, took lots of photos, +72!
My last flight was in 2008, ryanair
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Aug 2019, 8:20am

pete75 wrote:
And teh Uk produces about 1% of the world's total CO2. In other words what we produce is virtually irrelevant.


And if the world was divided up into units no bigger than the UK everybody's CO2 would be virtually irrelevant.
Problem solved!

brynpoeth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Aug 2019, 8:22am

Does the UK have any influence over former colonies?
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1976
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby Ben@Forest » 17 Aug 2019, 9:04am

Freddie wrote:This sounds very interesting, what book is it you're referencing and is it good as a general layman's overview of the topic?


Frans Vera - Grazing Ecology and Forest History. It's good and it was groundbreaking, not that everyone will subscribe to his theory of course. I'd say it's only readable if you've got a good grounding in ecological principles and an understanding in land management. Its not cheap either!

pete75
Posts: 11709
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 17 Aug 2019, 9:45am

Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:
And teh Uk produces about 1% of the world's total CO2. In other words what we produce is virtually irrelevant.


And if the world was divided up into units no bigger than the UK everybody's CO2 would be virtually irrelevant.
Problem solved!


Yes but it's not.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 17 Aug 2019, 9:52am

I have long held the view that if we in the developed nations don't cut our emissions to sustainable levels, levels that would be sustainable if everyone else on the planet were doing the same, how can we expect poorer folk in developing countries to do other than follow our example. If we do not cut down on flying, in a decade or two the populations of China, India and other developing nations will be doing as we do. Why would they not?

Mike Sales
Posts: 3345
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Aug 2019, 9:55am

pete75 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:
And teh Uk produces about 1% of the world's total CO2. In other words what we produce is virtually irrelevant.


And if the world was divided up into units no bigger than the UK everybody's CO2 would be virtually irrelevant.
Problem solved!


Yes but it's not.


What a pity, eh? If only we could agree to reckon our emissions by province or by smaller units of government then we would not have to cut them!

kwackers
Posts: 13549
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Location: Warrington

Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2019, 10:03am

pwa wrote:I have long held the view that if we in the developed nations don't cut our emissions to sustainable levels, levels that would be sustainable if everyone else on the planet were doing the same, how can we expect poorer folk in developing countries to do other than follow our example. If we do not cut down on flying, in a decade or two the populations of China, India and other developing nations will be doing as we do. Why would they not?

Yes but China!

Whataboutism must be the worst argument ever for doing nothing.
Doesn't matter that each of us make your average Chinese, Indian or pretty much any other non-western person look like a saint, or that we export a lot of our greenhouse gas emissions elsewhere.
What's really important is that those folk over there are collectively doing more damage than us. That they're doing our dirty work for us, or that their trying to emulate us or even that they're spending more per capita on "greening up" their country whilst we're starting to slide backwards is irrelevant.

However the upside is that why we start to do less and less and our ecology speak is all mouth and no trousers there are big moves afoot in those countries to produce environmentally friendly technologies and when they start to succeed they'll pull us up with them.

It's why we'll be driving Chinese EV's, fitting Chinese solar panels, using Chinese wind turbines etc etc
Meanwhile the U.S will be desperately paying people to dig up more coal and use the stuff they're currently stockpiling.
I guess we're in the middle somewhere...

pwa
Posts: 10240
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 17 Aug 2019, 10:29am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I have long held the view that if we in the developed nations don't cut our emissions to sustainable levels, levels that would be sustainable if everyone else on the planet were doing the same, how can we expect poorer folk in developing countries to do other than follow our example. If we do not cut down on flying, in a decade or two the populations of China, India and other developing nations will be doing as we do. Why would they not?

Yes but China!

Whataboutism must be the worst argument ever for doing nothing.
Doesn't matter that each of us make your average Chinese, Indian or pretty much any other non-western person look like a saint, or that we export a lot of our greenhouse gas emissions elsewhere.
What's really important is that those folk over there are collectively doing more damage than us. That they're doing our dirty work for us, or that their trying to emulate us or even that they're spending more per capita on "greening up" their country whilst we're starting to slide backwards is irrelevant.

However the upside is that why we start to do less and less and our ecology speak is all mouth and no trousers there are big moves afoot in those countries to produce environmentally friendly technologies and when they start to succeed they'll pull us up with them.

It's why we'll be driving Chinese EV's, fitting Chinese solar panels, using Chinese wind turbines etc etc
Meanwhile the U.S will be desperately paying people to dig up more coal and use the stuff they're currently stockpiling.
I guess we're in the middle somewhere...

The point I was making is that if we in the West want individuals in emergent nations to adopt green lifestyles as their wealth increases, we cannot do differently ourselves. If we are flying more and more, the increasing numbers of affluent Chinese and Indian people will follow our example. Either we cut back, or they will join us. And if they do, global air travel will increase enormously. This isn't fear of the Chinese. It is fear of what will happen when the Chinese become like us.

kwackers
Posts: 13549
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Location: Warrington

Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2019, 10:30am

pwa wrote:The point I was making is that if we in the West want individuals in emergent nations to adopt green lifestyles as their wealth increases, we cannot do differently ourselves. If we are flying more and more, the increasing numbers of affluent Chinese and Indian people will follow our example. Either we cut back, or they will join us. And if they do, global air travel will increase enormously. This isn't fear of the Chinese. It is fear of what will happen when the Chinese become like us.

I understand your point, I thought I was making the same point...

pete75
Posts: 11709
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 17 Aug 2019, 10:49am

Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
And if the world was divided up into units no bigger than the UK everybody's CO2 would be virtually irrelevant.
Problem solved!


Yes but it's not.


What a pity, eh? If only we could agree to reckon our emissions by province or by smaller units of government then we would not have to cut them!


Looks like you've cracked it. Well done!!!

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1976
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Give up flying?

Postby Ben@Forest » 17 Aug 2019, 10:58am

pwa wrote:The point I was making is that if we in the West want individuals in emergent nations to adopt green lifestyles as their wealth increases, we cannot do differently ourselves.


We're too late, air travel is projected to grow exponentially and principally through emergent nations. It would take an unprecedented level of global cooperation to halt it. (Not that air travel is the only component of Western lifestyles of course).