Give up flying?

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al_yrpal
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby al_yrpal » 17 Aug 2019, 11:08am

We are too late. In the second and third world everyone wants air conditioning, central heating, a vehicle preferably a car and to travel the world by air, and they are going to get it. Stopping these things here wont stop them. The best we can do is blaze a trail by generating power without fossil fuels and encouraging them to do the same thus delaying the onset of environmental Armageddon.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

pete75
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 17 Aug 2019, 11:15am

al_yrpal wrote:We are too late. In the second and third world everyone wants air conditioning, central heating, a vehicle preferably a car and to travel the world by air, and they are going to get it. Stopping these things here wont stop them. The best we can do is blaze a trail by generating power without fossil fuels and encouraging them to do the same thus delaying the onset of environmental Armageddon.

Al

Yeah but China is planning to build hundreds of coal fired power stations over the next five years. I doubt a few wind turbines in the UK will have any influence.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby al_yrpal » 17 Aug 2019, 11:23am

pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:We are too late. In the second and third world everyone wants air conditioning, central heating, a vehicle preferably a car and to travel the world by air, and they are going to get it. Stopping these things here wont stop them. The best we can do is blaze a trail by generating power without fossil fuels and encouraging them to do the same thus delaying the onset of environmental Armageddon.

Al

Yeah but China is planning to build hundreds of coal fired power stations over the next five years. I doubt a few wind turbines in the UK will have any influence
.


Yes, and much of the fuel is filthy Lignite. And, there is more than the few windmills in the UK. We have to keep inovating and developing green solutions to the point where they become competitive and preferable to fossil fuels.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2019, 12:25pm

This is about the best summary of China and coal I've come across.
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/03/is-china-returning-to-coal-power/

Lets not forget the Germans have abandoned nuclear and need something to replace it with whilst Trump is currently digging up as much coal as he can.

Too many petty arguments and no real action.
Most climate scientists are now of the opinion that we've missed the boat anyway without a massive shift starting right now and we're showing no signs of even beginning to try.
We're far too busy blaming others for our own inaction.

mattheus
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby mattheus » 17 Aug 2019, 12:50pm

kwackers wrote:We're far too busy blaming others for our own inaction.


Gosh what a terrible thought - I trust that none of the wise members of this forum fall into this category.

pete75
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 17 Aug 2019, 2:00pm

kwackers wrote:This is about the best summary of China and coal I've come across.
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/03/is-china-returning-to-coal-power/

Lets not forget the Germans have abandoned nuclear and need something to replace it with whilst Trump is currently digging up as much coal as he can.

Too many petty arguments and no real action.
Most climate scientists are now of the opinion that we've missed the boat anyway without a massive shift starting right now and we're showing no signs of even beginning to try.
We're far too busy blaming others for our own inaction.


The products of fracking won't help either. Private Fraser would describe the situation accurately.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby al_yrpal » 17 Aug 2019, 2:13pm

The Germans are very into making their lignite stations as clean as possible with flue gas desulpherisation and electostatic particle capture plus CO2 capture. Hopefully the Chinese and others will copy them. I know how many stations are under construction from the orders for boiler feed pump drives, two per set, its a lot!
Cover the Gobi desert in solar panels!

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

Freddie
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Freddie » 17 Aug 2019, 2:57pm

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I have long held the view that if we in the developed nations don't cut our emissions to sustainable levels, levels that would be sustainable if everyone else on the planet were doing the same, how can we expect poorer folk in developing countries to do other than follow our example. If we do not cut down on flying, in a decade or two the populations of China, India and other developing nations will be doing as we do. Why would they not?
Yes but China!

Whataboutism must be the worst argument ever for doing nothing....
But who is arguing for doing nothing? The people saying what about China (the whataboutism you refer to) are making a valid point, as Trump would say China's population is yuge!

Western populations are stagnant or falling, isn't this doing something to stunt climate change that many non-Western nations aren't and could be doing? (China's one child policy notwithstanding)

I see it like this. The West is like an older brother that was given a certain, interesting toy - now that he doesn't want it any more, rather than give it to his younger brother (everywhere else), he is going to lock it up in a box or just smash it to smithereens. How happy would the younger brother be about this? This is why it will be impossible, to my mind, to rely on much other than doing what we can (indeed, setting a good example) and doing our best to harness/invent cleaner sources of energy.

There is no chance that if we turn around to the Chinese, Indians, Africans and others and say "yes, I know we had that toy, but it was dirty and no good, and we don't want it any more, so you can't have it now we are done with it", they are just going to say "you're right, oh well, never mind".

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2019, 3:30pm

al_yrpal wrote:Cover the Gobi desert in solar panels!

Al

It's a little known fact that solar panels aren't that great in the desert. They don't like hot, makes them inefficient.
Then there's the length of the wires. Most energy is needed some distance from deserts.
The sodium furnace type thingies work well in the desert though - although it doesn't help the wires.

Where it does work well is pasture; grass, sheep, cows and solar panels work well together. Nice and cool, doesn't take up any space and keeps the cattle cool in the hot sun.
Win win.

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 17 Aug 2019, 3:31pm

Freddie wrote:There is no chance that if we turn around to the Chinese, Indians, Africans and others and say "yes, I know we had that toy, but it was dirty and no good, and we don't want it any more, so you can't have it now we are done with it", they are just going to say "you're right, oh well, never mind".

Then they will perish along with the rest of us. If that is how they address the situation. Hopefully they aren't that stupid.

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2019, 3:39pm

pwa wrote:
Freddie wrote:There is no chance that if we turn around to the Chinese, Indians, Africans and others and say "yes, I know we had that toy, but it was dirty and no good, and we don't want it any more, so you can't have it now we are done with it", they are just going to say "you're right, oh well, never mind".

Then they will perish along with the rest of us. If that is how they address the situation. Hopefully they aren't that stupid.

The basic problem isn't the people (at least not directly). It's the governments.

We must have learned by now that people don't change their ways voluntarily - at least not in any meaningful sense.
You can get some of them to recycle stuff a bit more but they then just use their "green credentials" as an excuse to do more of something else.

So you need government action, it's the only thing that works.

All the other countries; China, India, Africa etc have the same problem. Doesn't matter what the person on the street thinks, it's what their government is doing that matters.
Chinese people don't build new coal powered power stations, their government does. If the government doesn't sign them off they don't get built.
Ultimately it's all about short term gain though that's why you need international agreements and less Homer Simpsons pulling out of them.

We've reached a stage now where nothing other than drastic action will work and that can't be done unilaterally because anyone that does it will be financially disadvantaged.
We need politicians to get together and agree on action and more importantly stick to it. Say what you like about the Chinese but they're still well within their agreed Paris targets.

Freddie
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Freddie » 17 Aug 2019, 3:42pm

pwa wrote:
Freddie wrote:There is no chance that if we turn around to the Chinese, Indians, Africans and others and say "yes, I know we had that toy, but it was dirty and no good, and we don't want it any more, so you can't have it now we are done with it", they are just going to say "you're right, oh well, never mind".
Then they will perish along with the rest of us. If that is how they address the situation. Hopefully they aren't that stupid.
I don't think it as simple as that (re stupidity). I think many of these ex-colonies will see it as more 'white man imposing himself'. The Chinese are very heavy handed with drugs, in large part because they haven't forgotten (nor likely forgiven) the Opium Wars, not that i am any fan of drugs, mind.

I think much of the world will see it as hypocrites dictating to them from on high and wanting to stifle their progress. This may have some truth to it (the former part anyway), but if climate change is to be tackled, then it makes no odds whether the people proposing changes are hypocrites or not.

At the end of it all, the planet doesn't care much for whether its atmosphere is comfortable for human beings to inhabit or not.

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 17 Aug 2019, 3:47pm

The thing that will make China, the USA and other big players sit up and take notice (apart from getting rid of the big kid in DC) is a few mega climate disasters on their own patch. But by the time that makes them think "We have has enough of this" it might well be too late to do much about it.

Mike Sales
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Aug 2019, 4:49pm

pete75 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Yes but it's not.


What a pity, eh? If only we could agree to reckon our emissions by province or by smaller units of government then we would not have to cut them!


Looks like you've cracked it. Well done!!!



Not at all, it was you who had the idea.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby al_yrpal » 17 Aug 2019, 5:07pm

kwackers wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Cover the Gobi desert in solar panels!

Al

It's a little known fact that solar panels aren't that great in the desert. They don't like hot, makes them inefficient
.
Then there's the length of the wires. Most energy is needed some distance from deserts.
The sodium furnace type thingies work well in the desert though - although it doesn't help the wires.


Deserts are underutilised places usually with plenty of sunlight so its sensible to utilise them where practicable Transmission losses can be minimised by maximising voltages and minimising current. We will at some point be forced to and as a result develop the technology to maximise desert solar efficiency. Plenty of cities located close to or in deserts in the world.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!