Give up flying?

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Aug 2019, 8:55am

We could eat less meat, dink less milk, buy fewer shoes. Challenging, I admit.
John

Cycling and recycling

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2019, 9:10am

By coincidence I was thinking a few days ago about how farming / land use could evolve if we moved away from animal products. Here in Wales this poses particular problems because we have a lot of hilly land suited to sheep and cattle, and a smaller amount of flat land suited to crops.

We tend to think of sheep in a hilly setting, but in reality they are often moved around and spend some time on lower, flatter ground where crops might be grown. So removing sheep would free up some potential arable land. The same applies to dairy and beef.

But we are still left with the hills. Think of the hilly parts of Wales or the Pennines. We will never grow wheat or cabbages on the vast open moorlands, even if we wanted to. If we lose sheep we will lose the use of those areas for food production. And to some extent we will see trees emerging where we have not seen them before.

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661-Pete
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby 661-Pete » 23 Aug 2019, 9:18am

pete75 wrote:Why less livestock? Do you not benefit from their products?
I said "less", not "none". I benefit far less from their products than many Westerners. And it would be less still if I switched to non-dairy milk etc. - but I haven't made that switch. Yet....

As far as I'm aware no livestock is kept in the Amazon, it's a river, what would you suggest - water buffalo and hippopotami?
OK that's fine then - fancy a swim?

But of course I mean the basin. Sorry today's news stories are severely testing my sense-of-humour circuit...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2019, 9:21am

What is non-dairy milk made from and where does that come from? Soya beans grown in the Amazon basin? One positive thing to be said for cow's milk is that it can be relatively local if you shop carefully.

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 23 Aug 2019, 9:25am

pwa wrote:What is non-dairy milk made from and where does that come from? Soya beans grown in the Amazon basin? One positive thing to be said for cow's milk is that it can be relatively local if you shop carefully.

Not for me, soya doesn't like me.

Coconut milk is my preferred alternative - although I must admit to not knowing where it comes from.
I'll do a bit of research if that's no good then I'll switch to oat milk, quite like oat milk just that coconut milk is better.

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661-Pete
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby 661-Pete » 23 Aug 2019, 9:29am

pwa wrote:What is non-dairy milk made from and where does that come from? Soya beans grown in the Amazon basin? One positive thing to be said for cow's milk is that it can be relatively local if you shop carefully.
Don't think for a moment that doesn't bother me :? . There are no perfect answers. We eat tofu, and that's made from soya too.

Even worse, when we visited my B-i-L's farm in Maryland USA a few years ago, we went walking past his neighbour's crop. He (my BiL) explained that the neighbour was growing a 'roundup-ready' GM variety of soya. Ugh! At least my BiL said he didn't feed those sort of crops to his own herd.

I wouldn't go for almond milk either. Almonds - often grown in semi-arid regions (another thing we saw a lot of in Spain) - consume a tremendous amount of scarce water.

What's left? Oat milk? Not tried it - some say it's horrible.

I suppose the best way forward is to find ways of consuming less "dairy" - not looking for 'substitutes'. But as I said, no perfect solutions...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 23 Aug 2019, 9:40am

661-Pete wrote:What's left? Oat milk? Not tried it - some say it's horrible.

Minimal investment, what can you lose?

(I've never found anything I'd consider a good substitute in tea, most things are good in cereal though imo)

mattheus
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby mattheus » 23 Aug 2019, 9:42am

Oldjohnw wrote:We could eat less meat, dink less milk, buy fewer shoes. Challenging, I admit.


I haven't bothered to look this up, but I suspect meat consumption demands more land/resources than consuming dairy. Can anyone confirm this?

[I eat both.]

Shoes? If you mean leather, we can definitely manage without that. Various textiles make quite a good shoe for most purposes (I think vegan DMs are available?!) I confess I do like a proper leather shoe though. Only worn for interviews/weddings/funerals mainly these days ...

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2019, 9:59am

One problem with diary is that you have to produce calves to keep milk flowing, and half the calves are males only any good for beef. So you have a beef industry on the back of that whether you want it or not. And all the cattle burp methane, which is a problem.

pete75
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pete75 » 23 Aug 2019, 10:18am

mattheus wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:We could eat less meat, dink less milk, buy fewer shoes. Challenging, I admit.


I haven't bothered to look this up, but I suspect meat consumption demands more land/resources than consuming dairy. Can anyone confirm this?



A good guide to numbers are the amount of breeding cows. The Uk has about 1.5 million beef breeding cows and 1.8 million diary breeders. Of course maybe 50% of the dairy calves will be male so used for beef in one form or another. Dairy cattle are fed a much richer diet than beef because producing 20 plus litres of milk a day is hard work so needs plenty of fuel. It's most likely that beef cattle directly use more land for grazing than dairy but the latter uses more land indirectly for growing feed.
A lot of land used for animals, particularly sheep, isn't suitable for growing much in the way of crops.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Aug 2019, 10:24am

Over recent years I have bought wool, bamboo or organic cotton clothing and given up on polyester fleece. Wool is both hard wearing and sustainable, but involves sheep. It's all very difficult.
John

Cycling and recycling

pwa
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2019, 10:26am

Oldjohnw wrote:Over recent years I have bought wool, bamboo or organic cotton clothing and given up on polyester fleece. Wool is both hard wearing and sustainable, but involves sheep. It's all very difficult.

I hate wool. Even merino. I'd rather die of exposure. Cotton holds moisture too much. So I'm interested in other natural fibres.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Oldjohnw » 23 Aug 2019, 10:28am

pwa wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Over recent years I have bought wool, bamboo or organic cotton clothing and given up on polyester fleece. Wool is both hard wearing and sustainable, but involves sheep. It's all very difficult.

I hate wool. Even merino. I'd rather die of exposure. Cotton holds moisture too much. So I'm interested in other natural fibres.


Cotton but not for cycling! Merino I love.
John

Cycling and recycling

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 23 Aug 2019, 10:30am

pwa wrote:One problem with diary is that you have to produce calves to keep milk flowing, and half the calves are males only any good for beef. So you have a beef industry on the back of that whether you want it or not. And all the cattle burp methane, which is a problem.

I agree with your other upthead post regarding Wales.
Moorland is of course a man-made environment, managed and sustained traditionally by burning!!
Trees will always come in without such management.
Though latterly the tractor flail mower is used here and there to good effect. Even sheep will not regenerate heather ( grouse!) in the longer term. Cattle (especially older thriftier breeds) with their trampling perhaps better but they won't milk on such poor fodder.


Arable is a dicey business in much of Wales.
I know a small farmer who has sown and lost an oat crop three years running through climatic factors, (too wet at harvest, last year too dry earlier on) he said this year would be the last attempt.

On the dairy, issue and methane, the amount of greenhouse gas produced is, I guess, but a fraction of that produced by importing beans by air from S America or Africa. Or come to that chicken from the USA! And chickens produce greenhouse gases too.
Local is pretty much always best.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Ben@Forest » 23 Aug 2019, 7:08pm

mattheus wrote:Shoes? If you mean leather, we can definitely manage without that. Various textiles make quite a good shoe for most purposes (I think vegan DMs are available?!) I confess I do like a proper leather shoe though. Only worn for interviews/weddings/funerals mainly these days ...


Most faux leathers for shoes derive from plastic and come with all the usual problems of the petro-chemical industry. It's recently been reported faux furs, which are similarly produced, cause more environmental problems than real fur even on a pro rata basis.