Give up flying?

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brynpoeth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Aug 2019, 5:59am

Gave up flying many years ago
Local airport got a train station at last but it was not used much, Mr ryanair stopped calling, the station was downgraded to a request stop, +1!

People flying from here get the train to a Big Airport, -1!
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merseymouth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby merseymouth » 1 Aug 2019, 8:41am

Morning all, May I make one thing quite clear -When it is stated after an Air Accident Enquiry that "The cause must be recorded as Pilot Error" it is not a definitive answer, merely that they have found no provable evidence for malfunction or outside influence, therefore it must be attributed to a person on the grounds of probability"!
I recall an incident years ago of a RAF Chinook Helicopter that crashed killing all on board.
The enquiry came out with a "Pilot Error" conclusion. Only after many years of diligent research by the late pilot's father, with many protest stages, did a review take place which proved conclusively that it was in fact a serious breach on the part of the maker & the MOD that did bring the aircraft into contact with the ground. Th makers had refused to make available the full "Performance Window File" for the Mk 2 Chinnok, but relied upon the File from the Mk 1. The pilot was exonerated totally!
So don't rely on "Pilot Error" per sae. IGICB MM

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661-Pete
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby 661-Pete » 1 Aug 2019, 9:01am

Even further back in time: the infamous Manchester United crash in Munich in 1958 - that was originally attributed to 'pilot error' in that he was alleged to have failed to de-ice the wings before takeoff. Only ten years later was the pilot (who survived the crash, but was fired from his job and died at a relatively young age) fully exonerated. The crash was finally put down to slush on the runway - the fault of the airport.

So, yes. It does seem all too easy to 'blame the pilot'.
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kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 1 Aug 2019, 9:48am

661-Pete wrote:So, yes. It does seem all too easy to 'blame the pilot'.

That's because more often that not it is the pilot.
You're making the mistake of trying to prove something by finding the odd example that's contrary but that's just a logical fallacy.

The pilots job is to ensure not only that they're capable of flying the plane but that the plane is capable of flying, that the weather conditions are conducive to flight and even from your anecdote whether the slush on the runway is an hazard.
The pilot has absolute authority in these matters and can't be over ridden by anyone.

So if they decide it's safe to fly then presumably they've made sufficient checks to ensure that.
The question then becomes not whether there was slush on the runway but whether the pilot had made a sufficient analysis of the situation.
Presumably that would be covered in the air accident report.

It still doesn't remove the 'fact' that computer errors (both hardware and software) are only very rarely implicated in accidents compared to all the other causes.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 1 Aug 2019, 10:03am

One thing is certain in the aftermath of the Boeing crash.
The European Airbus will do even better in the sales charts.

merseymouth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby merseymouth » 1 Aug 2019, 11:45am

Hello again, The "Pilot Error" slur has been too readily used. The Comet crashes were attributed to PE, but of course turned out to be metal fatigue, at that time unknown!
View the film "Cone of Silence" for another example, great little film. TTFN MM

* The pilots have to comply with the makers "Performance Envelope" tolerances. If that data is wrong risks occur.

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 1 Aug 2019, 12:18pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello again, The "Pilot Error" slur has been too readily used. The Comet crashes were attributed to PE, but of course turned out to be metal fatigue, at that time unknown!
View the film "Cone of Silence" for another example, great little film. TTFN MM

* The pilots have to comply with the makers "Performance Envelope" tolerances. If that data is wrong risks occur.

Nobody is saying that pilot error isn't occasionally wrongly applied, obviously that would be foolish.
But pilot error or deliberate intent is more often than not the cause of plane crashes.

merseymouth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby merseymouth » 1 Aug 2019, 1:08pm

Hi Kwackers, I think you are making a grave assumption, only the example I recall of a pilot making a deliberate attempt to crash his kite was the one a couple of years ago who should have been sectioned over mental health issues.
No other example springs to mind, but plenty of manufacturing flaws show up! TTFN MM

kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 1 Aug 2019, 1:28pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Kwackers, I think you are making a grave assumption, only the example I recall of a pilot making a deliberate attempt to crash his kite was the one a couple of years ago who should have been sectioned over mental health issues.
No other example springs to mind, but plenty of manufacturing flaws show up! TTFN MM

Off the top of my head there's the Egypt Air one, the German Wings one, one in Mozambique, 911 - they were flown by the hijackers? MH370 was almost certainly one.
That's just the top of my head - lots of smaller private aircraft too.

Then there have been several stolen and crashed (turns out landing is a lot harder than taking off - who knew!) One not so long ago by a member of the ground crew iirc.

So "grave assumption"? I don't think so, even my little list whilst not being huge in terms of aircraft crashes is a significant percentage.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Ben@Forest » 1 Aug 2019, 9:58pm

kwackers wrote:Off the top of my head there's the Egypt Air one, the German Wings one, one in Mozambique, 911 - they were flown by the hijackers? MH370 was almost certainly one.
That's just the top of my head - lots of smaller private aircraft too.

Then there have been several stolen and crashed (turns out landing is a lot harder than taking off - who knew!) One not so long ago by a member of the ground crew iirc.

So "grave assumption"? I don't think so, even my little list whilst not being huge in terms of aircraft crashes is a significant percentage.


After the Germanwings crash there was an article in one of the broadsheets (written by someone in aviation) which had a figure for pilot suicide - and it was quite high. Murder suicide is less common but can be difficult to prove. If course the vast majority are in light aircraft, but there may be more in larger commercial aircraft than can be proven.

Carlton green
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby Carlton green » 3 Aug 2019, 7:42pm

Apart from the questionable environmental impact - which is rather negative IMHO - there’s a small chance that your driver is recklessly irresponsible (turns up drunk, see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-49222120).

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bigjim
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby bigjim » 3 Aug 2019, 8:20pm

The Air France flight that flew into the Atlantic was due to Pilot error. The recent Max flight. Well the night before the plane developed the same fault but that crew switched the system off, continued the flight and landed safely. The pilots on the fatal flight. Low hours on type, did not recognize the fault and flew into the sea. Pilot error?, Management?, Manufacturer?
Nothing left to prove.

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661-Pete
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby 661-Pete » 3 Aug 2019, 8:55pm

Yes pilot/driver error is often a factor - but can be exacerbated by other circumstances.

I've looked up major rail crashes of the past. The one at Lewisham, in 1957, which led to 90 fatalities, was caused when the driver of a steam train failed to see two signals at Danger. The view from the locomotive was very restricted (as it always was, with a massive boiler in front). And there was no AWS in those days. Anyway the driver should have asked the fireman to look out for signals, but failed to do so. So I'd put that one down to driver error - but with mitigating circumstances.

As it happens, a former colleague of mine told me, he could easily have been one of the victims of that crash. As a teenager, he was waiting to board an earlier train but couldn't get on because it was so crowded. This was the train that the steam train later ran into.

At least that scenario is unlikely to happen again. Since then the railways have installed AWS and steam trains are mostly a thing of the past.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

brynpoeth
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby brynpoeth » 4 Aug 2019, 8:17am

Train travel is exceedingly safe for passengers, not much to bleat about :wink:
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kwackers
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Re: Give up flying?

Postby kwackers » 4 Aug 2019, 9:30am

brynpoeth wrote:Train travel is exceedingly safe for passengers, not much to bleat about :wink:

Try buying a train ticket to New York.