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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 1:20pm
by Mick F
kwackers wrote:No, it's a 158% increase, not a 58% increase, so they've more than doubled in 12 months.
Ok, thanks.
You've used percentages correctly then, and that's more than most statistics do! :D

You've still not said how many EVs have been sold and how that compares to the ICE cars sold.
What are the numbers? Not the percentages.

Dunno how anyone can buy a Twizzy outright when RenaultUK don't sell them. Maybe bought by some other method?

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 4:26pm
by al_yrpal
Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:No, it's a 158% increase, not a 58% increase, so they've more than doubled in 12 months.
Ok, thanks.
You've used percentages correctly then, and that's more than most statistics do! :D

You've still not said how many EVs have been sold and how that compares to the ICE cars sold.
What are the numbers? Not the percentages.

Dunno how anyone can buy a Twizzy outright when RenaultUK don't sell them. Maybe bought by some other method?


Mick the figures are..

Total car sales last month 157,198
Of those pure EVs 2,271

Total pure EV sales this year 14,200

Hardly a flood is it in a market that 2.5 million vehicles are registered per annum?

Anyway to more important matters, did you know Spudulike has collapsed? :lol:

Al

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 4:34pm
by reohn2
Al
The sales have to start with one unit/car and then build on that,it's the same with anything new,people wait and see if it's worth it whilst using the vehicle they already own.
At some point sales either fail or gather momentum 158% is a leap.

Here's an example,my SinL and daughter's business doubled in turnover in the first six years,from when they started from their own front room using the cellar as a stockroom.
Now they run it from half of the top floor in a old mill and don't know what they're worth.
That's not me boasting,but an illustration that when you're selling something people want sales take off I'll repeat 158% in a single year is a leap,if 14,200 are sold this year and the trend continues total sales next year will 36,500 cars,if sales slow to 100% the year after,they'll sell 73,000.
You got to start somewhere it where you end up and whether you can supply demand that matters.

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 4:51pm
by kwackers
reohn2 wrote:Al
The sales have to start with one unit/car and then build on that,it's the same with anything new,people wait and see if it's worth it whilst using the vehicle they already own.
At some point sales either fail or gather momentum 158% is a leap.

Here's an example,my SinL and daughter's business doubled in turnover in the first six years,from when they started from their own front room using the cellar as a stockroom.
Now they run it from half of the top floor in a old mill and don't know what they're worth.
That's not me boasting,but an illustration that when you're selling something people want sales take off I'll repeat 158% in a single year is a leap,if 14,200 are sold this year and the trend continues total sales next year will 36,500 cars,if sales slow to 100% the year after,they'll sell 73,000.
You got to start somewhere it where you end up and whether you can supply demand that matters.

I think you're wasting your time, Al needs to believe he's right and so he reads in what he wants.
He ignores the 158% improvement and concentrates on physical numbers because otherwise he'd have to acknowledge the trend.

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 4:55pm
by reohn2
kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Al
The sales have to start with one unit/car and then build on that,it's the same with anything new,people wait and see if it's worth it whilst using the vehicle they already own.
At some point sales either fail or gather momentum 158% is a leap.

Here's an example,my SinL and daughter's business doubled in turnover in the first six years,from when they started from their own front room using the cellar as a stockroom.
Now they run it from half of the top floor in a old mill and don't know what they're worth.
That's not me boasting,but an illustration that when you're selling something people want sales take off I'll repeat 158% in a single year is a leap,if 14,200 are sold this year and the trend continues total sales next year will 36,500 cars,if sales slow to 100% the year after,they'll sell 73,000.
You got to start somewhere it where you end up and whether you can supply demand that matters.

I think you're wasting your time, Al needs to believe he's right and so he reads in what he wants.
He ignores the 158% improvement and concentrates on physical numbers because otherwise he'd have to acknowledge the trend.

Yep that about sums it up,you can't ever be wrong when you're right all the time :wink:

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 5:52pm
by Cunobelin
kwackers wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Cheaper to run?

I wanted a commuting vehicle and looked at the Renault Twizy, as I did not "need" a car.

However, when I looked into the running costs, the battery "hire" was more expensive than the fuel costs for a small "City Car"

Then because of the additional weight add things like additional tyre wear, brake wear etc and the running costs rise.

In the end, the Twizy priced itself off my list

Buy a Twizy without the battery hire - they do exist.
TBH the battery hire on the Twizy is way too expensive. They're obviously pricing it as a car despite it only being 6Kwh.

Brake wear? I assumed from your posts you were making some effort. You know EV's use regenerative braking? Your main problem with brakes is likely to be rust on the discs.
And tyre wear - you're really scraping the barrel there.



If that translates as the truth is unwelcome, then feel free to dismiss the reality, due to their weight tyre wear is greater on electric vehicles

PREMATURE TIRE WEAR APPEARS TO BE BIGGEST MAINTENANCE ISSUE FOR ELECTRIC CARS

The weight, braking, increased road and tyre wear are also one of the reasons why many electric cars are as bad in the case of particulate emissions as some conventional vehicles.

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 6:12pm
by al_yrpal
I am not trying to be negative about EVs and I do expect rapid developments in the technology and its impact. Its just that I am trying to be realistic rather than overly effusive. Are we there yet...no signs so far there are too many practical obstacles not least of which is public perception and infrastucture. As things stand attractively priced EVs will make excellent second vehicles for more local journeys where the owners can charge the battery easily at home.

Theres no guarantee that any growing trend will continue at the same rate. What will change things is technical progress and serious improvements in charging infrastructure.

Al

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 6:25pm
by kwackers
Cunobelin wrote:If that translates as the truth is unwelcome, then feel free to dismiss the reality, due to their weight tyre wear is greater on electric vehicles

PREMATURE TIRE WEAR APPEARS TO BE BIGGEST MAINTENANCE ISSUE FOR ELECTRIC CARS

The weight, braking, increased road and tyre wear are also one of the reasons why many electric cars are as bad in the case of particulate emissions as some conventional vehicles.

I'm not dismissing anything, just pointing out two things.
1. You were outright wrong about brakes.
2. If you're concerned enough about tyre wear to single it out then you really are clutching at straws.

From your own link:
"My personal experience has shown that EVs require A LOT less money to maintain than gas cars.
This is true for everything — except when it comes to tires!"


So for whatever reason that guy is having issues with tyres.
Now I don't doubt that, but nobody ever complains that diesels are heavier on tyres despite usually weighing significantly more than the petrol, so why are EV's singled out?
A quick look suggests EV's aren't much if anything heavier than a diesel equivalent.

Further down he mentions he had to buy a new set of tyres on his Leaf at 40k miles - if that's true he's doing better than me on my 1250Kg petrol car (and they run me £600 a set!).

So you (and him) seem to have assumed it's all about weight.
Now unless diesels also have the same problem I'm going to say you're both wrong and instead suggest the real culprit is acceleration.

EV's are significantly nippier than petrol and diesel equivalents by virtue of a lot more torque and nothing wears tyres faster than accelerating off the line.
He does admit to a bit of a heavy right foot too which furthers my suspicions.

Fortunately there's an easy fix. Leave the car in eco mode and keep the right foot light.

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 7:37pm
by Cunobelin

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 7:59pm
by Mark R
But its interesting that you didn't want to flag this up when we were discussing diesels.....

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 8:08pm
by RickH
There seems to be some debate on the tyre wear. There are counterclaims that the smoother acceleration of electric cars (no gear changes) reduces wear. Style of driving probably has a bigger effect & many early EVs have top end acceleration which will increase wear if used. (Another snippet I recall, not sure where from - someone who is into drag racing complaining that they had to do all sorts with combustion engine cars to get inside a 10 second 1/4 mile & now folk are turning up with unmodified Tesla's & doing it easily!)

I think tyre wear is a big issue full stop.

I was listening to a discussion on a podcast & it was said that the latest EU emissions standard allows 0.5g of particulates (per km? I'd have to refind it & relisten to be sure. Over a distance anyway). Current research is suggesting tyre wear produces around 6g! About 1kg of rubber wears off a tyre during its lifetime. Up til now most of people haven't given it much thought but it is, possibly, one of the biggest single contributors to micro plastic pollution (in a broad sense as most car tyres are primarily produced from synthetic rubber from petrochemicals).

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 9:22pm
by kwackers
Cunobelin wrote:An awful lot of people from diverse areas seem to think tyre wear is an issue...

And the links you provide seem to support my theory that it's torque rather than simply weight.

Front wheel drive cars are easily one of the biggest contributors to tyre wear - simply because the shift of weight from front to back means the tyres slip more when pulling away and slippage is what causes the tyres to break up and where most wear predominantly comes from.
(Front gets lighter and yet the tyres wear faster - hmmm).

As I said, engage eco mode and use a lighter right foot.

It's also possible to fix in software by programming in a different torque curve for the low gears - although that would reduce 0-60 times and unfortunately we have to accept that the client base for EV's are petrol heads.

I've probably mentioned this before but my ideal for EV's is more Twizy than 4x4. Unfortunately at the moment that market doesn't exist and so nobody is paying it much attention.
Ideally the Twizy imo needs double the range to make it usable especially in winter for me. A top speed of 60-65 wouldn't go amiss either then it could hold it's own on faster roads.
Throw in some better doors and I'm probably in.

My missus otoh needs something that can carry all her work around with her so a Twizy would only ever happen as a second car (and we've managed perfectly well without a second car for so many years now that I don't see the point).

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 9:38pm
by RickH
kwackers wrote:It's also possible to fix in software by programming in a different torque curve for the low gears - although that would reduce 0-60 times and unfortunately we have to accept that the client base for EV's are petrol heads.

Presumably you mean lower speeds rather than lower gears as the vast majorityof EVs (possibly all pure EVs) only have a single gear. The only ones with multiple gears that I've encountered are conversions that have retained the original transmission.

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 6 Aug 2019, 9:38pm
by kwackers
RickH wrote:
kwackers wrote:It's also possible to fix in software by programming in a different torque curve for the low gears - although that would reduce 0-60 times and unfortunately we have to accept that the client base for EV's are petrol heads.

Presumably you mean lower speeds rather than lower gears as the vast majorityof EVs (possibly all pure EVs) only have a single gear. The only ones with multiple gears that I've encountered are conversions that have retained the original transmission.

Sorry, yep that's exactly what I meant. Fingers engaged without the brain in gear... ;)

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 1:45am
by brynpoeth
kwackers wrote:..
I think you're wasting your time, Al needs to believe he's right and so he reads in what he wants.
He ignores the 158% improvement and concentrates on physical numbers because otherwise he'd have to acknowledge the trend.

158% "improvement" :?,* 'increase' would have been less incorrect I think

In any case there are far too many vehicles, I think there is no need to produce more

*are you sponsor€d, like someone else on these fora who is so enthusiastic about w*****s pubs seems to be?
(irony alert :wink:)