Peterloo Massacre

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Oldjohnw
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Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Aug 2019, 11:40am

This weekend is the 200th anniversary of this infamous event. Our current PM when he was Mayor of London, purchased - uselessly, in the event - water cannon to use at protests.
John

Cycling and recycling

pete75
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:50am

Oldjohnw wrote:This weekend is the 200th anniversary of this infamous event. Our current PM when he was Mayor of London, purchased - uselessly, in the event - water cannon to use at protests.


Yeah but he wouldn't have done if he could have used sabre armed yeomanry to attack protesters.

reohn2
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 12:07pm

Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.
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hondated
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby hondated » 11 Aug 2019, 4:45pm

Yep another one here who will never forget what these brave people did for us.
Proud to say in my own small way over many years I too have followed their example.
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pwa
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 4:57pm

reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....

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kylecycler
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby kylecycler » 11 Aug 2019, 5:25pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....

They can still only get better. :|

pwa
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 5:27pm

kylecycler wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....

They can still only get better. :|

You sure about that?

pete75
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 5:27pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....


In rotten boroughs a small number of voters would gather together to decide who to send to parliament. In present day "safe seats", of which there are many, a small group of voters on a party's selection committee gather together to decide who to send to parliament.
Last edited by pete75 on 11 Aug 2019, 5:28pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Aug 2019, 5:27pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....


Electoral issues are pretty serious today: it required the High Court to permit parliamentary debates over Brexit. We have a Home Secretary who until very recently - and quite likely still does - espoused capital punishment.

Local parties are infiltrated to deselect moderate MPs
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 11 Aug 2019, 5:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
John

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pete75
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 5:34pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....


Electoral is Sue's are pretty serious today: it required the High Court to permit parliamentary debates over Brexit. We have a Home Secretary who until very recently - and quite likely still does - espoused capital punishment.

Local parties are infiltrated to deselect moderate MPs


She's claiming she doesn't and never has supported it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 37651.html

Far be it for me to call her a liar but


pwa
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 5:35pm

So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?

Oldjohnw
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Aug 2019, 6:07pm

pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?

I don't believe that either I or anyone else said that we are not living in more enlightened times. We were pointing out that there are still huge issues around and we have to continue to fight. Housing, for example, in some places is Victorian both in terms of quality and legal protection. We know that there are some in power who can't wait to remove employment protection when we leave the EU. Education is very much second rate if you live in wrong place. If we should sell out the NHS to Trump's America - and we also know that there are some who want that - we might well see a poorer service for some, as is the case in the US.
John

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Ben@Forest
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Ben@Forest » 11 Aug 2019, 6:20pm

pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?


I think you're kicking against the pricks. There is a body of opinion that sees anything that we as a society have done as flawed and that progress has never happened.

slowster
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby slowster » 11 Aug 2019, 6:55pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....

I think the important distinction to make is that we are living in more enlightened times in spite of the likes of some prominent right wing politicians, including ministers, whose attitudes and beliefs are such that they would fit in very well in the cabinet at the time of Peterloo, Priti Patel seeming to be a good example.

The fact that such politicians are in Parliament, let alone the cabinet, suggests that in important respects we are not quite such an enlightened and progressive society as many of us like to imagine. Massacres and similar, but less violent, major abuses of state power against ordinary people with subsequent cover ups have happened within living memory, e.g. Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy Massacre, Hillsborough and the Battle of Orgreave.

pwa
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 7:14pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?

I don't believe that either I or anyone else said that we are not living in more enlightened times. We were pointing out that there are still huge issues around and we have to continue to fight.

Agreed. We have come a long way but we have a distance still to go.