Peterloo Massacre

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Mike Sales
Posts: 2855
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Aug 2019, 7:26pm

pwa wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?

I don't believe that either I or anyone else said that we are not living in more enlightened times. We were pointing out that there are still huge issues around and we have to continue to fight.

Agreed. We have come a long way but we have a distance still to go.


Of course we have progressed, but progress has been resisted by the reactionaries at every step.
The method of resistance has varied of course, and when reform has been achieved
they have often had to accept it, while working to reverse it.
The idea that we have reached a happy enlightened state and have no need of further reform is a way of resisting.
Think of the NHS and the Welfare State.
Think of the undemocratic House of Lords.
The Duke of Westminster is one of the richest people in Britain.
The privileged people work hard, often covertly to hang on to their money.
The UK is an ideal place to keep your ill gotten gains, e.g. Russian oligarchs.
Money can be kept secretly and untaxed and reforms are resisted very effectively.

Britain has been described as the “greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance in the world” after it was revealed eight out of the ten jurisdictions with the highest corporate tax haven scores are British territories.
Research by the Tax Justice Network found the UK and its “corporate tax haven network” to be by far the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance, with scores of its territories and dependencies landing in the top 10 offender list.
The British Virgin Islands, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Turks and Caicos Islands, Anguilla, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey all appeared on the list, with the UK as a whole ranked in 13th.


https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/8-out-of-the-10-biggest-tax-havens-are-british-territories/30/05/
Last edited by Mike Sales on 11 Aug 2019, 7:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

reohn2
Posts: 35239
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 7:30pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yes it is the 200th anniversary of a truly disgusting day and indeed period of out history,not to mention the covering up by the government afterwards of what went on.
Some would say we live in more enlightened and freer times,some of us would disagree.

That was before ordinary people voted, before rotten boroughs were sorted, at a time when capital punishment was carried out for minor offences. Who would argue that we are not living in more enlightened times? Things ain't perfect, but.....

There was a time when people were being controlled by fear either through the threat of violence or loss of home or job,things are getting to be the same,it's not so overt as previously but the threat is there.
This country is going backwards in workers rights,education,and earnings.
When working people are forced to use food banks.
When children are turning up at school not having eaten a breakfast.
When housing is so short some people are living in no more than hovels owned by landlords who couldn't give a stuff.
When schools are short of books and are appealing to parents for pencils and excercise books.
When the rich are being given more tax breaks than ever before.
When those in need of benefits especially the mentally and physically disabled are demonised by millionaire MP's such as IDS and Javid.
When multinational companies aren't paying ANY taxes.
When the tax loopholes for those who know how to play the system are bigger than the hole in the ozone layer.
When we have a PM voted into No10 by a miniscule element of the population,some of whom aren't even old enough to vote,yet are able to vote for a PM by dent of being members his political party.
The rise in crime,homelessness,drug misuse,pollution,etc,etc.
The diabolical treatment of asylum seekers from lands where wars we helped start and have been directly involved in.
The treatment of the Windrush generation.
The rise in racism the ultra rightwing fascists and support of the likes of UKIP and the Brexit party.

When these things are happening now in 21st century UK the 5th biggest economy in the world,there is something very wrong with the society I belong to and live in!
If you can't see that this situation is a product of the most deliberately incompetent government,run by the rich for the rich,you must be either blind or deliberately refusing to see what's going on before you.
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I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
Posts: 35239
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 7:41pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?


I think you're kicking against the pricks. There is a body of opinion that sees anything that we as a society have done as flawed and that progress has never happened.

I'm no prick,but someone with 20/20 vision who's seeing the society I live in regressing in the favour of the richest in our society and the poor being kick in the teeth and walked over?!
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I cycle therefore I am.

pwa
Posts: 9852
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 7:41pm

Nobody has said there is not room for improvement, but the idea that we are not more enlightened than was the case in 1819 would be a ludicrous notion to hold.

Adults can vote, even the women!
Child labour is banned.
Stealing a loaf of bread does not make you at risk of being hanged by the neck until you die.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be educated.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be taught to respect those of a different faith, race or sexuality.

We can all come up with a long list of things to fix, but that does not contradict the simple fact that we live in a society that is more enlightened than that of 1819.

pwa
Posts: 9852
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 7:43pm

reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?


I think you're kicking against the pricks. There is a body of opinion that sees anything that we as a society have done as flawed and that progress has never happened.

I'm no prick,but someone with 20/20 vision who's seeing the society I live in regressing in the favour of the richest in our society and the poor being kick in the teeth and walked over?!

Can I just confirm that I don't think R2 is a prick, in case there is any confusion on that point.

Mike Sales
Posts: 2855
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Aug 2019, 7:44pm

pwa wrote:Nobody has said there is not room for improvement, but the idea that we are not more enlightened than was the case in 1819 would be a ludicrous notion to hold.

Adults can vote, even the women!
Child labour is banned.
Stealing a loaf of bread does not make you at risk of being hanged by the neck until you die.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be educated.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be taught to respect those of a different faith, race or sexuality.

We can all come up with a long list of things to fix, but that does not contradict the simple fact that we live in a society that is more enlightened than that of 1819.


I guess it is complacency which annoys me. It gets in the way of further progress, which is needed.

pwa
Posts: 9852
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 11 Aug 2019, 7:45pm

Mike Sales wrote:
pwa wrote:Nobody has said there is not room for improvement, but the idea that we are not more enlightened than was the case in 1819 would be a ludicrous notion to hold.

Adults can vote, even the women!
Child labour is banned.
Stealing a loaf of bread does not make you at risk of being hanged by the neck until you die.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be educated.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be taught to respect those of a different faith, race or sexuality.

We can all come up with a long list of things to fix, but that does not contradict the simple fact that we live in a society that is more enlightened than that of 1819.


I guess it is complacency which annoys me. It gets in the way of further progress, which is needed.

Agreed.

reohn2
Posts: 35239
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 8:03pm

pwa wrote:Nobody has said there is not room for improvement, but the idea that we are not more enlightened than was the case in 1819 would be a ludicrous notion to hold.

Adults can vote, even the women!
Child labour is banned.
Stealing a loaf of bread does not make you at risk of being hanged by the neck until you die.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be educated.
There is a good chance that your children and grandchildren will be taught to respect those of a different faith, race or sexuality.

We can all come up with a long list of things to fix, but that does not contradict the simple fact that we live in a society that is more enlightened than that of 1819.

My point is that we are living in a regressive society and not economically,though that's true for most,with an acceleration in that regression in the past decade,overseen by the richest in our society ho hold the reins,andnthey have other plans afoot to continue that regression for the greater number of members of that society,just because they don't send in the troops with sabres and guns don't for one minute think these scum wouldnt if they had a chance.
They've found a better way to live well off others,they suck just enough blood so as to leave their host weak and preoccupied enough so as not to fight them off but drawing enough life blood from them so they,the parasite,lives a fat and healthy life for themselves and their offspring whilst teaching that offspring how to continue with the blood sucking.
What do you think the likes of Eton and other such schools are teaching these people?
And all done under a charitable banner too,then slip into Oxbridge to finish off before deciding what to do afterwards,politics,business,the worlds your oyster when daddy's rich and well connected.......
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I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
Posts: 35239
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 8:07pm

Mike Sales wrote:I guess it is complacency which annoys me. It gets in the way of further progress, which is needed.


That complacency is promoted and acted on by the unscrupulous rich within our society for their own ends.
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I cycle therefore I am.

pete75
Posts: 11430
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 8:39pm

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
I think you're kicking against the pricks. There is a body of opinion that sees anything that we as a society have done as flawed and that progress has never happened.

I'm no prick,but someone with 20/20 vision who's seeing the society I live in regressing in the favour of the richest in our society and the poor being kick in the teeth and walked over?!

Can I just confirm that I don't think R2 is a prick, in case there is any confusion on that point.


It's Ben@Forest who's calling R2 and others pricks not you.

reohn2
Posts: 35239
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 8:52pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I'm no prick,but someone with 20/20 vision who's seeing the society I live in regressing in the favour of the richest in our society and the poor being kick in the teeth and walked over?!

Can I just confirm that I don't think R2 is a prick, in case there is any confusion on that point.


It's Ben@Forest who's calling R2 and others pricks not you.

Quite.
PWA cast no aspersions in anyone's direction.
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I cycle therefore I am.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1463
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Aug 2019, 9:13pm

Child labour is banned but it is live and well in many of the countries from which we buy our economical clothing etc.

Child poverty is live and well and increasing.

Child slaughter in wars is live and well. Too often from weapons manufactured in the UK and sold to regressive, reactionary, oppressive regimes.

School exclusions are increasing. Democratic control of institutions is reducing. Child imprisnment in the UK is the worst in Europe.
John

Cycling and recycling

Mike Sales
Posts: 2855
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Aug 2019, 9:21pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Child slaughter in wars is live and well. Too often from weapons manufactured in the UK and sold to regressive, reactionary, oppressive regimes.



Britain is now the second biggest arms dealer in the world, official government figures show – with most of the weapons fuelling deadly conflicts in the Middle East.
Since 2010 Britain has also sold arms to 39 of the 51 countries ranked “not free” on the Freedom House "Freedom in the world" report, and 22 of the 30 countries on the UK Government’s own human rights watch list.

A full two-thirds of UK weapons over this period were sold to Middle Eastern countries, where instability has fed into increased risk of terror threats to Britain and across the West.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-is-now-the-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-a7225351.html

I wonder if you can guess which country is the biggest arms dealer?

pete75
Posts: 11430
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 9:49pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Child slaughter in wars is live and well. Too often from weapons manufactured in the UK and sold to regressive, reactionary, oppressive regimes.



Britain is now the second biggest arms dealer in the world, official government figures show – with most of the weapons fuelling deadly conflicts in the Middle East.
Since 2010 Britain has also sold arms to 39 of the 51 countries ranked “not free” on the Freedom House "Freedom in the world" report, and 22 of the 30 countries on the UK Government’s own human rights watch list.

A full two-thirds of UK weapons over this period were sold to Middle Eastern countries, where instability has fed into increased risk of terror threats to Britain and across the West.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-is-now-the-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-a7225351.html

I wonder if you can guess which country is the biggest arms dealer?


I don't know where they got those figures from but according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute the Russia is the second biggest arms dealer with sales over the last ten years of 72514 million, Germany second with 19923 million, then France 18876 million, then China 15709 and Britain in with place with 12990 million. 2018 is the latest year for which figures are available. Britain was in eighth place with 740 million in sales compare to Russia's second place 6409 million.

Just go here and you can get figures for the period you choose. http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/toplist.php

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1463
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Aug 2019, 9:54pm

Whatever the correct figures it doesn't look like the world has made much progress in the way of turning swords into ploughshares.
John

Cycling and recycling