All-female cabinet?

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Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Aug 2019, 7:24am

Simple. She's called "Dr" in Parliament. But if you like, Ms Lucas or the Hon Member for Brighton. And for heaven's sake don't call Britain's Trump 'Boris'.

Yes we know she has the luxury of opposition and yes we know that the Greens could not form a government. Read my post: I was disagreeing with her idea but commenting on her personal (and not all Greens) integrity and comparing it with that of the present cabinet.
John

Cycling and recycling

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1983
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Ben@Forest » 15 Aug 2019, 8:20am

Oldjohnw wrote:Yes we know she has the luxury of opposition and yes we know that the Greens could not form a government. Read my post: I was disagreeing with her idea but commenting on her personal (and not all Greens) integrity and comparing it with that of the present cabinet.


But the Greens could be in government as part of a coalition (let's say they win 10 seats), and as part of the deal Lucas gets to be Environment Secretary. In doing that she and the Greens get to enact three Bills which are their policy, but she also has to forward five Bills which aren't; some of which she doesn't personally agree with.

Has she lost integrity, or is she simply working within the compromises all governments make?

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Aug 2019, 8:33am

Oldjohnw wrote:Dr Lucas has more integrity in her little finger than the entire cabinet together.

+1
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reohn2
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Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Aug 2019, 8:39am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Yes we know she has the luxury of opposition and yes we know that the Greens could not form a government. Read my post: I was disagreeing with her idea but commenting on her personal (and not all Greens) integrity and comparing it with that of the present cabinet.


But the Greens could be in government as part of a coalition (let's say they win 10 seats), and as part of the deal Lucas gets to be Environment Secretary. In doing that she and the Greens get to enact three Bills which are their policy, but she also has to forward five Bills which aren't; some of which she doesn't personally agree with.

Has she lost integrity, or is she simply working within the compromises all governments make?

Isn't compromise politics in a nutshell,at least good politics,more so a coalition government?
What matters is the good of the nation,which after watching the past 10 years of government I'm more convinced than ever the Tories couldn't run the proverbial in a brewery,and that the LibDems did what they could to curb Tory diabolical excesses as best they could when in coalition.
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francovendee
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Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby francovendee » 15 Aug 2019, 8:42am

reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Dr Lucas has more integrity in her little finger than the entire cabinet together.

+1

When interviewed she seems to answer the question posed, be informed and seems very focused, what's not to like? I just wish she led the labour party instead of the greens. A much more uniting MP than Corbyn.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Aug 2019, 8:47am

francovendee wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Dr Lucas has more integrity in her little finger than the entire cabinet together.

+1

When interviewed she seems to answer the question posed, be informed and seems very focused, what's not to like? I just wish she led the labour party instead of the greens. A much more uniting MP than Corbyn.

I've got to agree.
Whatever Corbyn is he isn't a leader people feel they can follow.
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661-Pete
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Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby 661-Pete » 15 Aug 2019, 9:26am

reohn2 wrote:I've got to agree.
Whatever Corbyn is he isn't a leader people feel they can follow.
Well said. I've long had you marked down as an inveterate Labour supporter (correct me if I'm wrong) but even those of your ilk are having doubts about Jezza.

I remember having doubts about Michael Foot in his day, even though I was a staunch Labour supporter at the time, and had some admiration for the man. I think I was proved right in 1983 - although the 'Falklands factor' played some part in that! Also about Tony Benn, if he'd ever become leader. Some people are simply "not right" for the Labour leadership.

Regarding the antisemitism business: I don't hold Corbyn to blame for that, nor do I say "he isn't doing enough". It's just that his mere presence as leader has enticed a few mavericks in the party to stray from the acceptable line. Nothing he as a person can do about it - other than step down. It's a shame really.
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reohn2
Posts: 35971
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Aug 2019, 9:44am

661-Pete wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I've got to agree.
Whatever Corbyn is he isn't a leader people feel they can follow.
Well said. I've long had you marked down as an inveterate Labour supporter (correct me if I'm wrong) but even those of your ilk are having doubts about Jezza.

I remember having doubts about Michael Foot in his day, even though I was a staunch Labour supporter at the time, and had some admiration for the man. I think I was proved right in 1983 - although the 'Falklands factor' played some part in that! Also about Tony Benn, if he'd ever become leader. Some people are simply "not right" for the Labour leadership.

Regarding the antisemitism business: I don't hold Corbyn to blame for that, nor do I say "he isn't doing enough". It's just that his mere presence as leader has enticed a few mavericks in the party to stray from the acceptable line. Nothing he as a person can do about it - other than step down. It's a shame really.

IMHO Corbyn is a man of sound quality.
The problem is the nation don't warm to him,in the same way they didn't warm the Foot,unfortunately people can't see beyond the personality before them,his and Labour's ideas for the UK are sound,unlike BoJo and the present bunch of idiots or the likes of that chancer Farage and his diabolical dog's Breakfast party.

TBH it's a long time since I voted Labour,preferring to spoil my paper on occasion,but I will vote Labour next time
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Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Aug 2019, 10:19am

reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Yes we know she has the luxury of opposition and yes we know that the Greens could not form a government. Read my post: I was disagreeing with her idea but commenting on her personal (and not all Greens) integrity and comparing it with that of the present cabinet.


But the Greens could be in government as part of a coalition (let's say they win 10 seats), and as part of the deal Lucas gets to be Environment Secretary. In doing that she and the Greens get to enact three Bills which are their policy, but she also has to forward five Bills which aren't; some of which she doesn't personally agree with.

Has she lost integrity, or is she simply working within the compromises all governments make?

Isn't compromise politics in a nutshell,at least good politics,more so a coalition government?
What matters is the good of the nation,which after watching the past 10 years of government I'm more convinced than ever the Tories couldn't run the proverbial in a brewery,and that the LibDems did what they could to curb Tory diabolical excesses as best they could when in coalition.

I think comparisons with LibDems might be in order. They got into coalition, could have gone with labour or tories BTW. LibDem MPs brought forward and voted for laws that their party didn't agree with so that they could have an influence and get some laws they did agree with. They got punished for some of what they got tied in to and out took a strong, independent line on something as significant as Brexit to rehabilitate them somewhat.

Greens have integrity due to their position in UK politics, namely so far outside a position of power as to be just a talking head. I would like to see how a successful UK green party behaves when they're into a coalition government. What will they sell out on to get their most important policies through in some probably watered down degree. Nobody stays saintly or keeps integrity once they get close to power. Simply nobody has in the past and I can't see the instincts of a politician changing any time soon.

Cynical? Moi? Darn tooting I am. That's what following politics does for you.

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1983
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Ben@Forest » 15 Aug 2019, 10:40am

francovendee wrote:When interviewed she seems to answer the question posed, be informed and seems very focused, what's not to like? I just wish she led the labour party instead of the greens. A much more uniting MP than Corbyn.


Lucas is composed and lucid, but that doesn't really answer the question of what people think of political integrity. If she got some power how long would it be before her own voters claimed she had sold out?

I'm in favour of PR and the inevitable compromises that would bring, but you only have to read the rank tribalism on here and the losses the Lib Dems suffered in 2015 to see there's plenty who don't see it that way.

Interestingly they were trailing a R4 programme about lying recently. I didnt hear it, though it's still on catch up, but apparently it's an important evolutionary strategy.

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Psamathe » 15 Aug 2019, 11:22am

Tangled Metal wrote:.....
I think comparisons with LibDems might be in order. They got into coalition, could have gone with labour or tories BTW. LibDem MPs brought forward and voted for laws that their party didn't agree with so that they could have an influence and get some laws they did agree with. They got punished for some of what they got tied in to and out took a strong, independent line on something as significant as Brexit to rehabilitate them somewhat......

During the Con/Lib Dem coalition I felt the Lib Dems had sold-out for a taste of power. Their tuition fees vote was stupid but more generally I felt they were enabling things they should not have been just to get a few places in the Cabinet.

But after the following election when the Conservatives took power I appreciated how much of a moderating influence the Lib Dems had actually achieved so retrospectively felt they really did made a useful contribution (to moderating the Conservatives' agenda). I guess it was my first experience following a coalition so a learning experience for me in distinguishing between selling-out and compromise.

Ian

Ben@Forest
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Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Ben@Forest » 15 Aug 2019, 1:07pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I think comparisons with LibDems might be in order. They got into coalition, could have gone with labour or tories BTW..


That wasn't the case, at the 2010 election even an agreement between Labour, Lib Dem and the SNP would still have meant they had a minority government (by 3 MPs). But it raises an interesting point, it means it is incumbent upon the parties who can form a government to work together to agree that.

Really the Lib Dems had no choice, if they'd walked away and that had led (for sake of argument) to two more closely fought GEs while we were still reeling from a financial crisis they'd have been lectured on irresponsibility for a generation.

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Aug 2019, 1:17pm

I didn't consider Caroline Lucas's integrity was necessarily bases on her being Green, although there does seem a fundamental honesty with those who base there existence on modest living and care for the environment. I believe she just has integrity.
John

Cycling and recycling

reohn2
Posts: 35971
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Aug 2019, 2:04pm

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:.....
I think comparisons with LibDems might be in order. They got into coalition, could have gone with labour or tories BTW. LibDem MPs brought forward and voted for laws that their party didn't agree with so that they could have an influence and get some laws they did agree with. They got punished for some of what they got tied in to and out took a strong, independent line on something as significant as Brexit to rehabilitate them somewhat......

During the Con/Lib Dem coalition I felt the Lib Dems had sold-out for a taste of power. Their tuition fees vote was stupid but more generally I felt they were enabling things they should not have been just to get a few places in the Cabinet.

But after the following election when the Conservatives took power I appreciated how much of a moderating influence the Lib Dems had actually achieved so retrospectively felt they really did made a useful contribution (to moderating the Conservatives' agenda). I guess it was my first experience following a coalition so a learning experience for me in distinguishing between selling-out and compromise.

Ian

My thoughts exactly.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: All-female cabinet?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Aug 2019, 4:24pm

That moderating effect is widely espoused. Personally I don't completely agree with it. My perception of cameron before the 2010 GE was a kind of change in which end of tory party was gaining power. More centrist IMHO and pushing a kind of slightly green edge to n the blue. IIRC this was the time of Cameron and the husky sledge photocall, the green tree logo, etc.

There was a feeling among centre right that tories were going for middle ground more than ever before. For once people like me, who were more centre than right, could feel comfortable voting tory. I nearly voted Labour before Cameron because they seemed more centrist.

I suspect the 2015 lurch back right was a correction within the party but I think the separation with LibDems caused that. It was happening towards the end of coalition too I felt.

Whatever the case I don't think 2010 coalition was a true coalition in a European style. You can't compare it with say Belgian national governments for the last 40 or 60 years (not sure how far back not they've just 4 or 5 party coalitions for a very long time). As a Belgian national told me last week, "we give a little to you, a little to them and I get a little too", which I do not think a two party coalition gives.

Couldn't Cameron technically run a minority government without LibDems? Fighting for votes with each bit of legislation. Any loss could bring the government down. In that case perhaps there would have been a wider consensus formed more frequently? Just a thought.