Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

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PH
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby PH » 15 Aug 2019, 9:47am

Syd wrote:
PH wrote:Who is the "we"?
The UK isn't as highly taxed as many other OECD countries. The argument that you don't like paying taxes so you're glad others are avoiding them makes no sense, you're effectively subsidising them.

FTFY.

Disguised renumeration is described as a tax avoidance scheme (legal though, to many, morally questionable) rather than a tax evasion one (illegal).

I don't think it needed fixing thanks, though if you're going to correct people you might try using a spellchecker :wink: .
Yes I know the difference between avoidance and evasion, the loans are now being taxed and those using the system were certainly not expecting them to be, it's hard to see how that could be happening if the liability had been legally avoided. There's all sorts of tax avoidance schemes, when they are found to be incorrectly applied it becomes evasion.

drossall
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby drossall » 15 Aug 2019, 11:08am

I suppose that the (rather central) point that is not made clear in the news reports is this: Was the scheme used to benefit the staff (by reducing tax liabilities), or the employer (by reducing the total salary bill - i.e. the staff get roughly "market rate" after deductions, but the employer avoids the "overheads" of paying enough to cover proper tax liabilities?

I believe that the reports did indicate that staff were told that they must use this scheme, which might imply the latter scenario. In that circumstance, the driver for defrauding HMRC would have come from the employer, even though the legal liability might lie with the staff. Maybe you might then see how someone previously accustomed to PAYE, or not employing accountants or lawyers, might fall into a trap. It would also look like quite cynical behaviour from the employer, given that the main risks were to the staff.

But anyone knowingly not paying fair tax should ask questions.

pete75
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby pete75 » 15 Aug 2019, 12:09pm

drossall wrote:I suppose that the (rather central) point that is not made clear in the news reports is this: Was the scheme used to benefit the staff (by reducing tax liabilities), or the employer (by reducing the total salary bill - i.e. the staff get roughly "market rate" after deductions, but the employer avoids the "overheads" of paying enough to cover proper tax liabilities?

I believe that the reports did indicate that staff were told that they must use this scheme, which might imply the latter scenario. In that circumstance, the driver for defrauding HMRC would have come from the employer, even though the legal liability might lie with the staff. Maybe you might then see how someone previously accustomed to PAYE, or not employing accountants or lawyers, might fall into a trap. It would also look like quite cynical behaviour from the employer, given that the main risks were to the staff.

But anyone knowingly not paying fair tax should ask questions.


These people weren't staff they were freelance contractors. The agencies referred to find them work with various companies and the company pays the agency who then pay the contractor after taking there cut. It's up to an agreement between agency and contractor how they receive their money from the agency.
I'm quite familiar with this system having taken on a fair few contractors or consultants,as the more pretentious call themselves, during my working career. Fees paid for contractors who said they were on the loan scheme and those paying tax normally were no different.
We generally used contractors for implementation projects where extra people were needed temporarily or where particular specialist knowledge was required for a short period.

Syd
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby Syd » 15 Aug 2019, 12:09pm

pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:
100%JR wrote:We're taxed to the hilt on everything.If someone can get away with paying less tax then good luck to them.I know I would if I could.

I worked for myself for a number of years in the late 90’s alongside a full time job. I know that for that five year period, I did not have to touch my salary, getting by on the income from self employment. Despite that, according to my accountant, I was running at a loss and therefore wasn’t liable for any additional tax or NI.

Do I feel guilty about it? Do I heck. I’ve never been unemployed and am most definitely a giver, not a taker, in the tax system.


Sounds like tax evasion.You were lucky not to be caught as clearly you weren't running at a loss.

I supplied accurate figures to my accountant who legitimately offset income against valid deductible factors.

I must admit I was surprised and queried her calculations with her and she was happy to explain them all and demonstrate their legality. No evasion on my part at all.

pliptrot
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby pliptrot » 15 Aug 2019, 12:12pm

100%JR wrote:We're taxed to the hilt on everything.If someone can get away with paying less tax then good luck to them.I know I would if I could.
what a horrible point of view. We are not taxed to the hilt in any case. Maybe one day ( I hope not) you'll be stuck in hospital for a while and then you can reflect on those horrible taxes. Of course, without taxation there wouldn't be a hospital, or an ambulance to take you there, or a road to travel on, or, or, or.........

Syd
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby Syd » 15 Aug 2019, 12:13pm

PH wrote:
Syd wrote:
PH wrote:Who is the "we"?
The UK isn't as highly taxed as many other OECD countries. The argument that you don't like paying taxes so you're glad others are avoiding them makes no sense, you're effectively subsidising them.

FTFY.

Disguised renumeration is described as a tax avoidance scheme (legal though, to many, morally questionable) rather than a tax evasion one (illegal).

I don't think it needed fixing thanks, though if you're going to correct people you might try using a spellchecker :wink: .
Yes I know the difference between avoidance and evasion, the loans are now being taxed and those using the system were certainly not expecting them to be, it's hard to see how that could be happening if the liability had been legally avoided. There's all sorts of tax avoidance schemes, when they are found to be incorrectly applied it becomes evasion.

I know how to spell thanks it’s my phone that doesn’t and I’m not such a pedant to stare at my phone screen looking for all the incorrect auto insertions my phone makes.

If someone created a quick and easy to use spell checker for mobile devices I’d be happy to give it a go.

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100%JR
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby 100%JR » 15 Aug 2019, 12:58pm

pliptrot wrote:
100%JR wrote:We're taxed to the hilt on everything.If someone can get away with paying less tax then good luck to them.I know I would if I could.
what a horrible point of view. We are not taxed to the hilt in any case. Maybe one day ( I hope not) you'll be stuck in hospital for a while and then you can reflect on those horrible taxes. Of course, without taxation there wouldn't be a hospital, or an ambulance to take you there, or a road to travel on, or, or, or.........

Why is it?
We pay far too much tax.
We are taxed on income,pensions,food,fuel,clothing....infact pretty much everything.
Too many taxes.I’m not saying we shouldn’t pay A tax but not multiple taxes.
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drossall
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby drossall » 15 Aug 2019, 1:58pm

I guess because the Government is, in the end, presumably aiming for a total tax take, not a percentage taxation level. So everyone who "opts out" of taking a share in providing that take is "opting in" to everyone else providing that money instead.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Aug 2019, 2:17pm

The only money governments have is what they borrow and what they collect. We expect the government to do all sorts of things for us but don't acknowledge the simple fact of how it is paid for.

Incidentally, food isn't taxed.
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pete75
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby pete75 » 15 Aug 2019, 5:58pm

Oldjohnw wrote:The only money governments have is what they borrow and what they collect. We expect the government to do all sorts of things for us but don't acknowledge the simple fact of how it is paid for.

Incidentally, food isn't taxed.


It's not how much tax I pay that bothers me but what I get in return for it.

Syd
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby Syd » 15 Aug 2019, 6:33pm

Oldjohnw wrote:The only money governments have is what they borrow and what they collect. We expect the government to do all sorts of things for us but don't acknowledge the simple fact of how it is paid for.

Incidentally, food isn't taxed.

Some foodstuffs have VAT applied so are therefore taxed.

Stuff like biscuits and orange juice attract VAT as do all varieties of Nesquik except for chocolate. Its a complex issue.

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100%JR
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby 100%JR » 15 Aug 2019, 6:56pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Incidentally, food isn't taxed.

Yes it is.
Restaurants,Takeaways,Cafes,Pubs......
My wife has just received a refund on PPI(yes it does happen!!).....minus TAX!
We are literally taxed on everything.
Income Tax,Fuel Tax,Council Tax,VAT.
It is just wrong :x
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pete75
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby pete75 » 15 Aug 2019, 7:34pm

100%JR wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Incidentally, food isn't taxed.

Yes it is.
Restaurants,Takeaways,Cafes,Pubs......
My wife has just received a refund on PPI(yes it does happen!!).....minus TAX!
We are literally taxed on everything.
Income Tax,Fuel Tax,Council Tax,VAT.
It is just wrong :x


Ok so how do you think defence, health, education, roads, prisons, courts, the planning system, bin collection, public parks, social services, the police etc etc etc should be funded?

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100%JR
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby 100%JR » 15 Aug 2019, 7:39pm

pete75 wrote:
100%JR wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Incidentally, food isn't taxed.

Yes it is.
Restaurants,Takeaways,Cafes,Pubs......
My wife has just received a refund on PPI(yes it does happen!!).....minus TAX!
We are literally taxed on everything.
Income Tax,Fuel Tax,Council Tax,VAT.
It is just wrong :x


Ok so how do you think defence, health, education, roads, prisons, courts, the planning system, bin collection, public parks, social services, the police etc etc etc should be funded?

Read my posts?
A Tax....ONE clear Tax.
Not multiple take every penny you earn Tax.
It's not rocket science :roll:
Police?Mmmmm what's that then?I take it you mean Traffic wardens in very expensive publicly funded vehicles?
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pete75
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Re: Disguised Remuneration. Any Sympathy?

Postby pete75 » 15 Aug 2019, 7:44pm

100%JR wrote:
pete75 wrote:
100%JR wrote:Yes it is.
Restaurants,Takeaways,Cafes,Pubs......
My wife has just received a refund on PPI(yes it does happen!!).....minus TAX!
We are literally taxed on everything.
Income Tax,Fuel Tax,Council Tax,VAT.
It is just wrong :x


Ok so how do you think defence, health, education, roads, prisons, courts, the planning system, bin collection, public parks, social services, the police etc etc etc should be funded?

Read my posts?
A Tax....ONE clear Tax.
Not multiple take every penny you earn Tax.
It's not rocket science :roll:
Police?Mmmmm what's that then?I take it you mean Traffic wardens in very expensive publicly funded vehicles?


So what should that tax be on? I take it you're in favour of removing all tax from things like fags, alcohol, fuel etc because the taxes on any ONE of those wouldn't be enough to pay for all public services.